Left wing dialogue

[TrueBlueYorkshire]

As someone who has worked all over the world and is interested in politics I just wanted to see if I am only one who finds the language of the left tiring.

To give you an allusion of the type of language i mean below are two prime examples:

1. Taking the most extreme view and expressing it as if it is common.
2. Denying that people should show personal responsibility (this quite often goes hand in hand with point number 1).

I just find the language instantly de-rails any sort of constructive conversation regarding policy into a haves vs have-nots type argument which puts most people on the defensive. While people on the right are having sensible arguments with each other regarding society; in general people I talk to on the left seem to be in their own little world.

AIBU to think this sort of language is all to common from the left and it is what is isolating them?

You have training to volunteer at CAB and support from paid staff/defined rules. They also run accredited legal advice training. You don't need any qualifications or training to be, for example, a housing advice worker for the local authority, a job centre advisor, a your worker with a community organisation.... I would vastly prefer to work with CAB and receive advice from CAB because, certainly in the Sefton organisation, the training and monitoring and standards are very very high.

CAB is not an issue for my degree. If I have to take work, the kind of work that I have to take would endanger my degree (and CAB). As I explained. You just have no concept of the effects of what you suggest.

*youth worker

lemonade you continue to display astonishing ignorance. You come across as an over-privileged lady who lunches. You seem to have absolutely no idea of real life, and people's struggles. But you really like belittling people who actually do stuff, don't you? Those very people you claim to support. Like most left wingers, you are far happier when they are knuckling down being poor, rather than working and studying their way out of that limited background you criticise so much (my father was on long term sick leave). Oh goodness, I can't even come from a proper socialist area, because it returned a Labour MP. I can't possibly know a real socialist, because I don't live near Liverpool.

You have obviously never written an academic paper in your life. A proper one. One which gets published. I mean, how dare anyone spends hours and hours of their free time, after their paid work, hunched over a computer doing research and bemoan the fact they only receive a few hundred pounds for it at the end of the day?

And yes, I should get writing that paper now. Enjoy your evening spent on the internet. Some of us have to work now.

basically; you will make a far more valuable contribution to society and your family if you do not risk your degree by overdoing it.

Is my point... I have to study and do CAB around childcare responsibilities, the work they are trying to force you to take is forced on you in all the time you are not caring for children. You only get childcare support for 2 children and not 4. The work would replace the study, CAB is not endangering the study.

yes thats me chandler, a lady who lunches. One who has never undertaken an original research project.
A northern warrior who is intent on denigrating those who aren't familiar with Merseyside.

your powers of discernment are such that you are presenting yourself as quite the comedian.

you're also desperate to prove your industrious intellect to strangers for whom you have no apparent respect (on the Internet no less)

You have my most heartfelt sympathies.

Can you not understand that it is incredibly difficult to even get a job that fits around childcare responsibilities and that even if I got a job that didn't the fact that I will have to pay a top up for two children's childcare and fully for the other two during holidays means I just actually physically would not have enough money in my bank to do it.

Your posts would make a lot more sense if you didn't continually conflate different posters, FYI.

I do hope you don't write your Proper Academic Papers in the same way.

Oh, and it's in a pot, btw. On the front step of my rented house. In Croydon. But you knock yourself out with the old champagne socialist cliches if it helps you sleep, at 3am or whenever.

So basically the choice is a continuous cycle of employment and unemployment in the holidays followed by finding a new job and then leaving it again until my children (primary age) are old enough to be left home alone. Plus our school doesn't even have holiday childcare to even use. Most wards in Sefton have inadequate childcare provision (part of the research) even if people can afford it.

Last time I looked at it holiday childcare for 4 kids with tax credits help would still mean I need a job that pays £30k per year to break even at which level I would lose tax credits support I believe...

Add to that the fact that very few graduates in full time work in my locality even earn that much you would perhaps see it is more than ridiculous.

I am one of those higher rate taxpayers who is not wealthy. Yes, my lifestyle is more comfortable than someone on minimum wage in that I don't worry about paying the gas bill. But you know what, if I could stay at home and do nothing but look after my family, house and garden I would absolutely do so. So, to all those who think benefits should be increased, be careful what you wish for. If benefits were at a level to facilitate me not working I would hand in my notice tomorrow.

I wouldn't. I value the impact of my career on the lives of other people.

I'd rather hoped I wasn't in a minority

Yes, when I lived with my ex husband our actual income per person was lower than benefits standards. He is a high rate tax payer. It's as much about benefits rules as benefits amounts. Being on benefits means you are forced to live by rules which are often just plain unworkable but almost always make it impossible to get out of the state support trap.

And not being in paid employment has not made me want to sit off at home and do nothing. That is something that would drive me insane and I think it would for most people. Most people want to be gainfully occupied IMO/E and lots of people think they will have a great time doing nothing at home until it happens (usually when they retire like my dad).

Ig benefits were at a level to facilitate me not working I would hand in my notice tomorrow

I'm sure that would be a tremendous loss to society and the trade you ply.

It's an interesting reflection on the origin if right wing aggression towards the poor - the assumption that they're getting away with something if they claim benefits. It reminds me of the religious who believe that if there isn't an almighty, vengeful and unhinged god, morality cannot exist.

From my actual experiences of living and working (unpaid and paid) with people where most people are supported by the state in work or out the idea that people just sit around and do nothing is absolutely untrue. Sefton has a very active voluntary sector that has received national praise in many different arenas - most of the people involved in that sector are either entirely or partially supported by the state. The government has replaced a huge amount of paid positions in the public sector with volunteers but who do they actually expect to do those things?

Most of the things I have been able to do have only been possible because xh is a high rate tax payer and pays a good amount of child support. I was only able to actually leave him (his house) and do my current work experience in the states because my parents gave me some financial help. I am one of the luckiest ones.

If he increased his child support I may be able to stay in my house and continue my degree. The government just pass the dependence around - should anyone have to ask their abusive ex husband for an extra £152 per month for a year to get them through the end of a degree? Isn't that precisely something the state should be supporting?

Lemonade. Your view seems to be, in summary, the economically disadvantaged are not aspirational because they have low self-worth... The way to increase self-worth is to increase their benefits, which will in turn create aspiration, which in turn will lead them to become better educated and more able to build a career to support their family and wider society.

It seems great in theory, but is there any evidence this works in practice? I find it hard to believe that you can buy self-worth and aspiration in my opinion.

Yes it does work, look at Scandinavia.

I think the point is that grinding unending poverty with no hope erodes self-worth and therefore aspiration. Plus what is there realistically to aspire to if finances limit your opportunities to change your situation.

Before I had DC I worked in many shit jobs. I even didn't claim what I was entitled to and survived sofa surfing on £20 per week (early 2000s) rather than claim because of these beliefs that I used to hold about being a drain on society. It just prolonged and compounded the issues for me. Don't underestimate the effect of poverty on aspiration and ability. If you live in and accept poverty particularly you just lack resources to live any other way and are very vulnerable to things like abusive relationships and debt.

I used to survive by going home with men and buying high fat/energy kebabs every couple of days. It does adjust your expectations for yourself.

Offred. Having read your story I have a lot of respect for what you are doing....

The problem with public policy is that the rules that necessarily accompany them inevitably leave some highly deserving cases losing out as the policy can't cover all eventualities. In my view, a way of managing this would be to give more discretionary funds to local authorities to support particular cases, much like was done for the spare room levy/bedroom tax (though this was arguably not sufficient). This could be used potentially to support people in your type of position to enable you to complete your degree whilst supporting 4 kids as a single mum.

I don't think the default assumption should be that the poor are feckless scum (labelling theory?) and that they should have to prove they are not to be entitled to support.