Left wing dialogue

[TrueBlueYorkshire]

As someone who has worked all over the world and is interested in politics I just wanted to see if I am only one who finds the language of the left tiring.

To give you an allusion of the type of language i mean below are two prime examples:

1. Taking the most extreme view and expressing it as if it is common.
2. Denying that people should show personal responsibility (this quite often goes hand in hand with point number 1).

I just find the language instantly de-rails any sort of constructive conversation regarding policy into a haves vs have-nots type argument which puts most people on the defensive. While people on the right are having sensible arguments with each other regarding society; in general people I talk to on the left seem to be in their own little world.

AIBU to think this sort of language is all to common from the left and it is what is isolating them?

I think it is tough for some high rate tax payers to realise that being a high rate taxpayer actually makes them working class. That they are not part of the ruling class and that they are being exploited by the ruling class who need to have some of the working classes in higher paid work to fund the state and some of the working classes in poverty so they can effectively enslave them. They also need to turn each group on the other so no-one questions them they do that by provoking the high rate tax payers into snobbery and the poor react with disgust and are dismissed as envious/entitled but can't do much about it because they are threatened with starvation if they object!

yes Flash we do want to achieve the same ends in all probability.

I just happen to believe that poverty breeds apathy.
If we could raise the incomes of the disadvantaged to become comparable with the advantaged I do not believe that apathy would be the end result.

far from it. If the disadvantaged can appraise themselves as being on a par with those who are in employment, instead of continously feeling like their societal subordinates I believe that they would be able to aspire to the educational attainment of their more advantaged counterparts and more importantly to pass these values on to their children.

nothing quashes aspiration more than negative self appraisal, a feeling of being worth 'less than' other segments of society.
provide the disadvantaged and vulnerable with the means of accessing the lifestyle and more importantly (and ironically) the sense of entitlement that is bred to be almost inherent in those from more advantaged backgrounds and they will begin to place their sights on achieving what they intrinsically are capable of. rather than what economics necessitate that they are capable of.

poverty breeds insufficient self regard, which is the parent of apathy.

More than that lemonade. You are commonly told you are not entitled to be anything other than poor if you try. It's not even self induced apathy, sometimes it's enforced powerlessness with no apathy in sight.

When people talk about the entitlement of the poor what exactly do they mean? Feeling entitled to a home and food? Feeling entitled to support to achieve their potential? Feeling entitled to some control over their own lives and circumstances? Why aren't poor people in actual fact entitled to that?

Do the extremely wealthy not realise that by hording the money they are displaying the most extreme entitlement when they feel they are personally more entitled to resources than the whole of the rest of society?

lemonade If the disadvantaged can appraise themselves as being on a par with those who are in employment, instead of continously feeling like their societal subordinates I believe that they would be able to aspire to the educational attainment of their more advantaged counterparts and more importantly to pass these values on to their children.

What a load of idealistic airy fairy claptrap.

I work in the professions, have a Masters and came from a poor background. There is no way on this earth I would have bothered studying had I not had to do so in order to get a reasonably well paid job. I would far rather sit and watch tv, sunbathe and shop, if I didn't have to work for a living. And I'm probably quite an academic person in that I was one of the more motivated in my degree!

I certainly wouldn't choose to spend my time studying. And lets face it, what some people seem to mistake for studying on here (namely googling subjects that interest them at their leisure) is a long way removed from proper academic study to exam standard in a recognised discipline, which even if you are passionate about it, still involves large sections which are necessary but very tedious).

I certainly wouldn't choose to spend my time studying. And lets face it, what some people seem to mistake for studying on here (namely googling subjects that interest them at their leisure) is a long way removed from proper academic study to exam standard in a recognised discipline, which even if you are passionate about it, still involves large sections which are necessary but very tedious).

How do you expect people to actually study whilst working long hours and raising children then? That's what this government and previous governments have been enforcing and is why people are getting trapped in poverty whether they work or not.

chandler you may lack the necessary spirit of enquiry.

don't judge the child born to benefits claimants on a sink estate by your own poor standards.

that way lies arrogance and folly.

I'm doing a law degree btw at uni and volunteering at CAB and running an advocacy group for the NHS and raising four kids. Economics are making it increasingly difficult to do this and current expectations are that if I want to eat I have to give up the voluntary work and the study to take a NMW job. That if I get a NMW job and I want to not struggle I need to work more hours or get paid better. If I struggle I should not have had four kids and it is tough, that's my lot in life. The childrens fathers are free to do as they please.

To expect investment from society in return for my investment in society (and myself and my family) makes me entitled and I should shut up and know my place because high-rate taxpayers pay a lot of tax...

Electra I wrote a long old post in rely to thechandler but tbh life's too short and the tennis is on and I have lavender to plant. So just this, then, and then I'm done.

I'm betting you don't know a single, solitary 'socialist' in real life. Your posts betray your utter cluelessness, over and over again.

Considering the school I went to and how much my education was disrupted by those who now purport to be socialists in a strong Labour heartland, I think of the two of us most likely to know real socialists, you would be the one most in danger of having your lavender stuffed where the sun don't shine.

Is your judgement normally so poor? chandler you may lack the necessary spirit of enquiry. I'm currently writing an academic paper on comitology. A research paper. I'll be glad when its over, as I have such bad habits, I never get round to starting it until around 10pm at night. That then generally means working until 2 or 3 am and not getting enough sleep. But its original research (if you know what that is), not solely commenting on what others have written. Then again, an awful lot of academics I know have similar bad habits and lack of sleep. Its a common problem.

I don't think you live in the real world. Possibly in a lavender garden or something. Jeez.

I'm currently running a research project into childcare with CAB, except I don't get paid...

The labor party is a social Democratic Party btw not a socialist party.

offred

Serious question. Why didn't you study your law degree straight from school? I went to a pretty dire school (A level history wasn't offered, and I needed it to get in, so had to do a year studying English first before transferring). Its so much harder when you have commitments, even if you do have strong finances. By the time it came to my Masters, I really couldn't be bothered any more. Managed it, but breathed sigh of relief when it was over.

your credentials are informed by your economic aspirations almost in totality.

you admitted as much. logic dictates that your enquiring spirit is secondary. A shame in my estimation.

yes I know what original research entails(I would hope most graduates would in fact) you do not have to elucidate further to prove yourself to me.

I live in Liverpool. does that count as a Lavender Garden? (whatever one of those is. I mean, a garden entirely composed of lavender? how unimaginative)

In fact a lot of the things I do I have to pay for because cuts have squeezed expenses budgets. The NHS group recently conducted an "original piece of research" too, designed and run by the volunteers, approved by public health and the local authority... Most of the volunteers involved in that contributed their money as well as their time too and didn't get paid. It's just prejudice that being paid makes you a better contributor. Most people do not make a net contribution of tax despite being paid and their contribution is their work. It's no different for people being entirely supported by the state but for them they are told that the only way they are allowed to contribute is by working in a NMW job which actually makes them and society no better off financially.

Because my parents were abusive and I was homeless at 16 and ended up in an abusive relationship which culminated in a rape and pregnancy.

The research the nhs group did was recently presented at the national public health conference btw.

lemonade your credentials are informed by your economic aspirations almost in totality.

Good point. If it were actually possible to make some decent money from getting papers published in academic journals, I would have invented Reverse-Solange myself. Single-handedly!

you admitted as much. logic dictates that your enquiring spirit is secondary. A shame in my estimation.

No idea what you're on about, but if you don't have the ability, you don't get published. I hope you didn't write in that odd stilted manner in your degree, as you may have struggled.

The Lavender Garden was meant to be metaphorical...and satirical.

Sorry to hear that offred. If I were you, I'd give up CAB. You've probably done enough for it to look good on your cv for getting a training contract, it runs away with your time and all I believe CAB advisors are allowed to do is read from those pre-prepared sheets and phone the enquirer back. Don't give up on your degree whatever you do.

No, that isn't all CAB advisers are allowed to do. I do not do it only for my CV either. It's a valuable contribution to society and to my life and it may lead to future employment by the organisation itself and is allowing me to develop skills and experience which I value and will be valuable to society. Plus giving up CAB would not make a difference to the situation in reality. What I need is to not lose £152 a month and be forced into low paid long hours and inflexible work - which is what endangers my degree.

My current choices are poverty or death moving back in with an abusive partner, or abusive parents or moving in with a new partner or taking said job and losing my degree. Because of assumptions that people on benefits (actually child tax credits and only recently housing benefit) are unproductive scum.

I consider it a great shame that your primary motivation is economic chandler.

so kind of you to show such concern for my literary capabilities. thankfully I don't have to write anything other than scrawl in my profession. lucky then eh?

alluding to a lavender garden is rather poor metaphor/satire you know.
How about going the whole hog and alluding to narnia/neverland/champagne supernovas next time?

I am quite confident my contributions to society and to myself are actually worth the very minimal income I receive and also that my contributions would be reduced if forced into the state's idea of what I should be. No-one can contribute much when living with abuse or working in the kind of job they believe I should have (and actually which doesn't even exist where I live).

But you know lemonade I'm from southport so know how ludicrous the lavender garden thing would be!!! Know it's not quite in Liverpool but would be rather interesting to drop people who think that way into Bootle and have them actually speak to the people I am generally living and working with on all this stuff.

offred you will make a far more valuable contribution to society and your family if you do not risk your degree by overdoing it.

I only made those comments about CAB because when I volunteered for them, that was all we were allowed to do. The pre-prepared information sheets had been approved by a qualified solicitor. The risk was in giving information that may have been relied upon by a client who then suffered loss and claimed against CAB, who were not covered by professional indemnity insurance. I wouldn't actually get involved with a CAB branch that doesn't have that rule. It puts you at too much risk, and expects too much of you, as a law student.

according to chandler she was raised someplace appropriating L20.

I wonder how true that is?

waves to offred

(Allerton btw )