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AIBU?

Left wing dialogue

362 replies

TrueBlueYorkshire · 09/07/2015 15:03

As someone who has worked all over the world and is interested in politics I just wanted to see if I am only one who finds the language of the left tiring.

To give you an allusion of the type of language i mean below are two prime examples:

  1. Taking the most extreme view and expressing it as if it is common.
  2. Denying that people should show personal responsibility (this quite often goes hand in hand with point number 1).


I just find the language instantly de-rails any sort of constructive conversation regarding policy into a haves vs have-nots type argument which puts most people on the defensive. While people on the right are having sensible arguments with each other regarding society; in general people I talk to on the left seem to be in their own little world.

AIBU to think this sort of language is all to common from the left and it is what is isolating them?
OP posts:
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freshandminty · 13/07/2015 16:09

Giving 50k to everyone would not work because it would lead to massive inflation and that much money would act as a disincentive for people to work. A right to a subsistence amount i.e. enough for people to be guaranteed to be able to purchase essentials would work. It would mean people are guaranteed their human rights and dignity without acting as a disincentive to work because as I said above the vast majority want more than the bare essentials long term. With everyone receiving a CW everyone would have more disposable income and increased living standards. Not enough money to buy a yacht but enough to eat well and lead a fulfilling life.

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freshandminty · 13/07/2015 16:35

. that's a lot of happy people and ?50k more per person into the economy! ?50,00060,000,000 people = ?300 billion added to the UK GDP at a stroke!*

The state has already pumped 375 billion into the economy but instead of going to the people it went to the financial institutions so they can lend more money but it hasn't helped the GDP because it was reinvested in shares and hedge-funds. Therefore a few people at the top benefited from state money and the vast-majority are suffering cuts, not just in welfare but state services and those who are employed in them such as the NHS. www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/news/quantitative-easing/

The Tories wont admit this though. They will just keep going on about "scroungers" and immigrants.

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Flashbangandgone · 13/07/2015 17:06

I can't actually do the math... it would actually be ?3 trillion, per annum!

Of course, we both agree that's ridiculous.... but even a much more modest citizen's wage, especially if topped up with benefits etc. would be extremely expensive. Are there costed plans for this? Presumably the marginal rate of tax would need to be very high!

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Flashbangandgone · 13/07/2015 17:09

I think the main thing is if you want to have a dialogue with someone who has a different view of things unless you come to that discussion with somewhat of an open mind. If you have an entirely closed mind and your intention is that people should just accept the surperiority of your view when they are told to - that isn't a dialogue in any real sense

Pot and kettle comes to kind Hmm

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thehumanjam · 13/07/2015 17:09

How annoying I just typed a long post and it has disappeared. Anyway in response to your post Flash, my comments were not aimed at you or anyone on this thread, I was just making a general observation.

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Flashbangandgone · 13/07/2015 18:12

The state has already pumped 375 billion into the economy but instead of going to the people it went to the financial institutions....

I don't think anyone's particularly happy that we were in a position where bank's needed to be recapitalised, but what was the alternative? Let the entire financial system fail? Starting for scratch would have been a real year zero for the developed world!

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Offred · 13/07/2015 22:17

Except I have not even criticised your views one time on here. I haven't had the opportunity because you haven't let up from haranguing me about my deserving was as a person and explaining how you thought I could solve things (without finding out/listening to me about my options) long enough to even really explain what it is you do think. The CW has been on trial etc but you have not explained your views or where you have you haven't been made to justify over and over and constantly been misunderstood. Do you just have no self awareness or something?

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freshandminty · 14/07/2015 00:43

That said, I do believe in the general principle that the best way for society to become stronger, fairer, wealthier and happier, is for individuals to take personal responsibility for their actions, and not to expect that 'the state' owes them a living, and that we should work towards a society where people strive to wean themselves off state benefits, as opposed to a society where people are encouraged to embrace and depend upon them.

That sounds all fine and dandy but based on the assumption that every woman will meet a partner who is committed to them and their children and not abusive in anyway and all relationships are happy and nobody ever feels like leaving. It also assumes that all these couples are financially well off enough to meet all the costs involved in bringing up children. Sounds a lot more like a fairy-tale Utopia than anything proposed by left.

I know next I will be told that people who cannot bring up their children without state support should not have children. If this happens there will be complete anarchy and breakdown in society in years to come as their will be not enough young people to support the aging population. Across Europe countries are trying to increase the birth rate for this reason. The French were the most successful and this was due to a generous welfare system and good quality state-subsidized childcare.

This is pretty centrist, but in comparison to 'the left' on here, which scornfully derides any suggestion that in any way reduces the scope of 'the state' (be that public sector cuts or requiring individuals to take responsibility rather than 'the state'), I feel like a baby-eating monster who takes pleasure in pushing disabled out of their wheelchairs whilst snatching their benefits

As Offral has already pointed out right and centrist policies of reducing the scope of the state is what led to the recession, particularly reducing regulations in the financial sector.

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freshandminty · 14/07/2015 00:53

Are there costed plans for this?

Yes here they are www.citizensincome.org/resources/Newsletter20153.htm

Presumably the marginal rate of tax would need to be very high!

No not necessarily, see above link.

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freshandminty · 14/07/2015 00:54

Sorry Offred

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freshandminty · 14/07/2015 02:10

The state has already pumped 375 billion into the economy but instead of going to the people it went to the financial institutions....


I don't think anyone's particularly happy that we were in a position where bank's needed to be recapitalised, but what was the alternative? Let the entire financial system fail? Starting for scratch would have been a real year zero for the developed world!

I am not referring to the 2008 5bn bailout to prevent banks collapsing which I agree was necessary because of the failures of right wing/centralist policy which caused the collapse in the first place.

I am referring to the 375bn put into the financial sector through Quantitative Easing, which is money the Central bank printed so the the state could increase inflation by buying shares in financial institutions to lower interest rates and increase borrowing. It did not have the desired effect on the GDP because the money borrowed was just reinvested in shares so it is floating around in the speculative financial sector and very little trickled down to the real economy. If this money was given to households to spend rather than financial institutions it is estimated to have a greater positive effect on GDP because people would actually buy things with it rather than shares.

this article explains it much better than I can

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Offred · 14/07/2015 02:13

I'm glad you are around fresh Flowers

I think people underestimate how wearing it is to constantly be judged based on prejudice and be expected to justify why you aren't scum of the earth by explaining very painful and personal things to people who have no relationship to you. I think people forget that 'people like me' are actually human beings with feelings and when you are struggling the absolute worst thing is being repeatedly kicked and judged by other people.

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Offred · 14/07/2015 02:15

Especially given my ordinary life actually almost breaks me anyway. Add the judgement on top it's not dramatising to say it evokes suicidal feelings, even if it is 'just' strangers on the Internet.

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Offred · 14/07/2015 02:19

I did actually attempt suicide a few months ago, things felt so utterly hopeless but I guess that'd just be one less scrounged for the high rate tax payers to support...

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freshandminty · 14/07/2015 02:37

Thank you Offred.

I think people forget that 'people like me' are actually human beings with feelings and when you are struggling the absolute worst thing is being repeatedly kicked and judged by other people.

This is so true. On a thread in chat after the election I was told that because I am a young single parent on benefits that my child and other children of people like me should be taken into care and adopted by hardworking married couples with fertility problems. It wound me up so much I couldn't sleep. That was actually the Nazi's method of dealing with single parents. And they call the left loons....

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Offred · 14/07/2015 02:44

Sad very nasty.

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freshandminty · 14/07/2015 02:59

I am so sorry to hear that. Please don't doubt that the empathy and compassion you have shown through your posts here and your ideas show what a valuable member of society you are Flowers

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Offred · 14/07/2015 03:09

I know that I am valuable and that I work very hard and contribute a lot, I'm confident about that but it doesn't help, if anything it can make things worse. I was featured in a BBC show on the economy once for something I was running and after that strangers tracked down my email address and wrote to abuse me about having four children. It's more that society generally at the moment devalues and dehumanises people like us and it's very hard to cope with that as well as maintaining everything you are doing to try and change the situation. When things start looking as though no matter how hard you try you will never be able to change your situation it's just an utterly despairing pit of hopelessness. In the end my parents gave me financial support to actually break away from my husband after the suicide attempt but now my home is being put in danger by the benefit cap after just two months of living in my own place. Just one kick after another really and it's hard, even when you are confident, resourceful, knowledgeable and intelligent. Hard not to retreat into abject misery.

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Offred · 14/07/2015 03:11

But ultimately no-one wants to hear it because you have "brought it on yourself"...

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Offred · 14/07/2015 03:17

And it terrifies me what it's like for other people if it is like this for me. I had the benefit of a middle class upbringing. My parents have been able to help financially and fund things to enable some amazing work experience. My ex husband pays very good child support. Whatever it is like for me it is absolutely worse for 99% of people on benefits and I see that in CAB too.

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Offred · 14/07/2015 03:18

If my parents didn't own their home and have high paying jobs I wouldn't even have a house.

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Offred · 14/07/2015 03:22

Women's aid told me there was literally nothing they could do to help me, as have several other agencies. It's not for lack of trying that people end up trapped, it's because of lack of actual options.

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freshandminty · 14/07/2015 03:36

I understand what you mean. If you don't accept their opinions and present different ones then you are "arrogant and entitled", as well as being a scrounger or feckless.

I think our so-called leaders have a lot to answer for. I believe they have a responsibility that comes with being a political leader no matter where they stand on the spectrum of left or right to use their position to combat prejudice or dehumanization of any kind. They could easily do this by presenting their arguments in a factual and transparent manner.

Take Nigel Farage for example. I am sure he doesn't think that racist attacks are acceptable. But he doesn't take responsibility for the fact that they are a by-product of his inflammatory and wildly inaccurate speeches about "immigrants taking our jobs".

I am sure George Osborne doesn't want benefits claimants attacked or abused (maybe that is just wishful thinking) but his speeches cause this and give it acceptability.

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Offred · 14/07/2015 03:48

Yes because people seem to think that if they pay tax and you receive benefits that they own you. That everything you do/have they are entitled to scrutinise because you aren't really a full person.

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Offred · 14/07/2015 03:51

You aren't actually allowed to be responsible for yourself because you aren't considered able or trustworthy. You aren't allowed to value yourself because you don't fit the limited description of what a valued person is. If you don't accept this quietly then you deserve to be personally attacked as 'entitled' and 'irresponsible'.

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