Left wing dialogue

[TrueBlueYorkshire]

As someone who has worked all over the world and is interested in politics I just wanted to see if I am only one who finds the language of the left tiring.

To give you an allusion of the type of language i mean below are two prime examples:

1. Taking the most extreme view and expressing it as if it is common.
   
2. Denying that people should show personal responsibility (this quite often goes hand in hand with point number 1).
   

I just find the language instantly de-rails any sort of constructive conversation regarding policy into a haves vs have-nots type argument which puts most people on the defensive. While people on the right are having sensible arguments with each other regarding society; in general people I talk to on the left seem to be in their own little world.

AIBU to think this sort of language is all to common from the left and it is what is isolating them?

[Garlick]

[Offred]

TBH most of the things you say really resonate with me I think you are brill tbh.

[Offred]

Garlick - the thing you say about depression resonates with me. I don't think I am depressed at all. I think actually it is just a fact that at that time there was no hope. My parents have known all about the issues for a long time but did not give the help until I had satisfied them that I had tried everything else. They also told me that I was not really suicidal and did not mean to kill myself. I've struggled with suicidal feelings for decades, not because of depression but actually just because I think my feelings were normal reactions to hopeless situations. Most recently I began feeling as if I couldn't care what suicide would do to my children, I actually just could not cope with living anymore because actually, practically my future had no hope, my parents had refused to help in the past, other organisations had told me they could not help. I had phoned the suicide retreat and they had offered a place but I was aware that it would not offer me any solutions to the actual situation. Suicide just became the only actual pragmatic choice for me. I think that's hard for some people to understand really.

[Garlick]

I might make that my next username, Offred

[Garlick]

ODL, previous Basic Income experiments have not failed. Utrecht is starting a limited experiment next year, although only welfare recipients will qualify so it's not quite the same.

What critics seems to miss is that ALL earnings over the basic income can be taxed, the basic already being met. And of course there is an incentive to earn on top of basic - doesn't everyone want a little bit more?

It also renders wage restrictions unnecessary. If an employer can get decent staff for £2.50 an hour, they may go ahead.

[BreakingDad77]

So the employers would have to offer higher and higher wages to get people to do them. Then inflation would go crazy and the 'citizen's wage' would become meaningless as the rise inflation would mean it became worth nothing

Tell me again where it's the left using extreme examples.

The minimum wage didn't cause the world to collapse when it was introduced.

[Offred]

Oops *garlick (autocorrect doesn't like you!)

[Offred]

Garrick

Yes, it comes at a cost though, my parents aren't exactly brilliant. Plus they are now guarantors so rent arrears I get into are payable by them which is very worrying.

[Offred]

You mean like women who do an awful lot of shit work for absolutely nothing?

There is no evidence at all that would happen. If it were true then everyone would have given up their jobs to go on unemployment benefits long before now.

What you say doesn't make sense and is actually just an ignorant opinion. Have you read the site linked to about it?

[OurDearLeader]

The citizens wage is absolute nonsense. It's basically saying they will fund people not to do anything they don't want to do. An awful lot of people don't want to work every day and would stop if they could, particularly people who do unpleasant but essential jobs like caring or emptying bins. So the employers would have to offer higher and higher wages to get people to do them. Then inflation would go crazy and the 'citizen's wage' would become meaningless as the rise inflation would mean it became worth nothing. Plus there would be a real danger that essential items would become scarce like food or care because nobody was willing to do the work to supply them and companies capable of supplying them would go bust because of high wages. Plus the state would have to borrow more in order to pay higher salaries leading to more debt which could become unmanageable.

It would create a situation very much akin to 1930s Germany and would be stupid, unworkable and dangerous.

[Garlick]

It is utterly miserable reading this thread because the truth's almost unbearable. I feel for all of you - and, Offred, I'm so glad you've accepted the help

But if I acknowledge the systematic hatred against me, and the speed at which options for even marginal improvement are disappearing, my already difficult life looks pointless. I live with so much that is unacceptable to me (but must accept) and work so hard to focus on the positives. If I were to take a balanced, realistic view, then I would choose not to accept this life and many people would be devastated by my death. So I avoid facing facts.

I'm not even 'severely' disabled. My depression is well-managed. The paragraph above isn't coming from a desperate place, it's pragmatic. Millions are suffering more than I.

doesn't think the Tories are that bad, and he was really confused and asked if the politicians know this

They have access to the world's greatest minds and its most accurate knowledge. Of course they know.

[freshandminty]

I think the Tories have a high level of contempt for their voters, as well as the so-called scroungers otherwise they would not lie to them.

For example nobody on benefits have more disposable income than those in work. The 26,000 figure is housing benefit which goes to the landlord, not the claimant. It would not be as high if they capped rents or built social housing. They won't do that because they don't want to upset the property developers and speculators who fund them even if it causes another recession. Their only problem is that this rich minority who benefit from Tory policies don't have enough votes to get them elected.
So they tell people in low paid jobs that people out of work have more money than them and that they will sort this out if they vote for them.

They say they cannot afford to pay people benefits and this is why there is a budget deficit. They present the welfare sum as 33% of the budget. When that is broken down you can see that it is only 14% goes to working age benefits, the rest is pensions. Nearly half of that 14% is housing benefit and another large amount for disability and sickness. Only a fraction goes on JSA, IC and ESA.

They also talk about generations of families on benefits as a lifestyle choice as if it is common when in fact less than 1% of families are in generational unemployment. Loan parents are more likely to be in employment than mothers in couples by the time their youngest child reaches 11.

I was talking to my brother about this, who doesn't think the Tories are that bad, and he was really confused and asked if the politicians know this. With a bit of googling you can find all this information so I am sure that they do.

So why do they lie? To get elected through scapegoating and scare-mongering and fuck the consequences for those in receipt of abuse or harassment as a result.

[Offred]

You aren't actually allowed to be responsible for yourself because you aren't considered able or trustworthy. You aren't allowed to value yourself because you don't fit the limited description of what a valued person is. If you don't accept this quietly then you deserve to be personally attacked as 'entitled' and 'irresponsible'.

[Offred]

Yes because people seem to think that if they pay tax and you receive benefits that they own you. That everything you do/have they are entitled to scrutinise because you aren't really a full person.

[freshandminty]

I understand what you mean. If you don't accept their opinions and present different ones then you are "arrogant and entitled", as well as being a scrounger or feckless.

I think our so-called leaders have a lot to answer for. I believe they have a responsibility that comes with being a political leader no matter where they stand on the spectrum of left or right to use their position to combat prejudice or dehumanization of any kind. They could easily do this by presenting their arguments in a factual and transparent manner.

Take Nigel Farage for example. I am sure he doesn't think that racist attacks are acceptable. But he doesn't take responsibility for the fact that they are a by-product of his inflammatory and wildly inaccurate speeches about "immigrants taking our jobs".

I am sure George Osborne doesn't want benefits claimants attacked or abused (maybe that is just wishful thinking) but his speeches cause this and give it acceptability.

[Offred]

Women's aid told me there was literally nothing they could do to help me, as have several other agencies. It's not for lack of trying that people end up trapped, it's because of lack of actual options.

[Offred]

If my parents didn't own their home and have high paying jobs I wouldn't even have a house.

[Offred]

And it terrifies me what it's like for other people if it is like this for me. I had the benefit of a middle class upbringing. My parents have been able to help financially and fund things to enable some amazing work experience. My ex husband pays very good child support. Whatever it is like for me it is absolutely worse for 99% of people on benefits and I see that in CAB too.

[Offred]

But ultimately no-one wants to hear it because you have "brought it on yourself"...

[Offred]

I know that I am valuable and that I work very hard and contribute a lot, I'm confident about that but it doesn't help, if anything it can make things worse. I was featured in a BBC show on the economy once for something I was running and after that strangers tracked down my email address and wrote to abuse me about having four children. It's more that society generally at the moment devalues and dehumanises people like us and it's very hard to cope with that as well as maintaining everything you are doing to try and change the situation. When things start looking as though no matter how hard you try you will never be able to change your situation it's just an utterly despairing pit of hopelessness. In the end my parents gave me financial support to actually break away from my husband after the suicide attempt but now my home is being put in danger by the benefit cap after just two months of living in my own place. Just one kick after another really and it's hard, even when you are confident, resourceful, knowledgeable and intelligent. Hard not to retreat into abject misery.

[freshandminty]

I am so sorry to hear that. Please don't doubt that the empathy and compassion you have shown through your posts here and your ideas show what a valuable member of society you are

[Offred]

very nasty.

[freshandminty]

Thank you Offred.

I think people forget that 'people like me' are actually human beings with feelings and when you are struggling the absolute worst thing is being repeatedly kicked and judged by other people.

This is so true. On a thread in chat after the election I was told that because I am a young single parent on benefits that my child and other children of people like me should be taken into care and adopted by hardworking married couples with fertility problems. It wound me up so much I couldn't sleep. That was actually the Nazi's method of dealing with single parents. And they call the left loons....

[Offred]

I did actually attempt suicide a few months ago, things felt so utterly hopeless but I guess that'd just be one less scrounged for the high rate tax payers to support...

[Offred]

Especially given my ordinary life actually almost breaks me anyway. Add the judgement on top it's not dramatising to say it evokes suicidal feelings, even if it is 'just' strangers on the Internet.