AIBU to think self employed people should be exempt from Jury Service?

[Petal02]

Yes, I know everyone should do their civic duty but ….

DH is self-employed, and the winter months are his busiest season. He was originally asked to do Jury Service in November, but requested a deferral on the grounds that two weeks out during his peak season would be a disaster for a sole trader. The ‘compensation for lost earnings’ is just over £60 per day (or £32 if you’re only needed for a half day) for a two week jury service period, which is way, way short of DH’s usual earnings. And whichever time of year he was called, we knew he was going to take a fairly significant hit, financially.

Thankfully a deferral was granted, and he was given a revised start date of Monday 6 July.

So ……. DH obviously didn’t accept any work for the period w/c 6 July or w/c 13 July (even though he planned to try and fit a few small jobs in). On the afternoon of Friday 3 July he got a phone call saying he wouldn’t be needed on Monday 6th, and that he was to phone up after 5pm on Monday 6th, to see if he would be needed for Tuesday 7th. The Court Officer went on to say that it was likely he may not have to attend at all, but he had to stay on standby for the two week period, phoning up after 5pm each day, to enquire about the following day. Which is just a joke for a self-employed person.

As it turned out, when he phoned on Monday night, he was then stood down for his entire period of jury service. But in the meantime he’d turned down a lot of work, and even though he’s now able to accept jobs again for the coming fortnight, we’ve made quite a loss and I’m really not happy.

I don’t think the self-employed should have to do this. DH had to work really hard to pull a small business through the recession, and jury service has been unhelpful.

Err, did I miss some major breakthrough in the evolution of the human race where we discovered only the self employed might find jury duty really difficult? Oh no that's right they aren't, same as any other group, from those on zero hour contracts, single parents, those with caring responsibilities, massively important job roles etc some have to just suck it up and others will be excused.
I take it all those who are self employed would pay their employees as usual if their employees were called up?

So public sector workers can get their full pay when on jury duty but all others get the basic allowance is that right?

The op wanted the self employed excused on that basis, and so did more than one other poster. I'm just pointing out that the self employed as a collective group are no more inconvenienced than any other collective group, hence the reason the law allows people to be excused on an individual basis rather than on the basis they are one of a group that has some members that might be adversely affected.
No not every self employed person has employees but lots do.

Some employers may pay whilst on jury service depends on your contract. Firms who give generous perks like paid maternity leave and sick pay may well do.

One trial I sat though as a trainee solicitor had a farmer as a juror. He kept falling asleep and the judge was v unimpressed. But he had been milking his cows at 4am daily then sitting in a warm room so it was inevitable really.

Egosum - my family are farmers and this thread got me thinking what we'd do. We'd really really struggle.

I am self employed and a sole trader and a jury service call during my busy season could be devestating... but I stil think it is incredibly important that normal people like me are available in a trial by peers.

Lurked - any carer that couldn't leave the person they are caring for and can't get anyone to cover can't go. What they going to do? Put them in prison? If they can get cover no matter how convenient, as I'm sure it would be to put it mildly, then cover is cover. Same with a single parent - a non-working single parent usually has some friends to help out or family but if they don't and they really can't as it would mean the child being left in a vulnerable position then again they can't do it. So they don't go. What they going to do? A working single mother could be badly affected it's true in terms of loss of income and child care. Then I'd push for exemption. People on zero hours contracts it's complicated - over 16 hours they might be getting some working tax credit, under 16 hours I think they can claim JSA. They accrue holiday. In some cases it might be doable, especially if they can pick up work evenings/weekends and a lot of these jobs are in sectors that work outside the 9-5.

I'm not saying all self-employed people should be exempt but as said a few times before it needs to be on a case by case basis, as I think it should for other groups.

If you'd read the thread it's not about simply being inconvenienced. People could lose their livelihoods. Not just SE but I think more than any other group, yes.

If I had a small business where I hired a couple of people then I would do my best to pay them in full. I would maybe ask them to defer it to a quieter period, if there was one, so that it wasn't necessary to get someone else to cover with that additional cost. I'd definitely do something to help if I could.

That's my point annielouise you can't excuse any group en masse cos they're all different, no more or less for the self employed. Zero hours wouldn't get jsa cos they wouldn't be looking for work while in court, even though they aren't getting paid and quite possibly won't have a job to go back to, which for some will mean they lose everything same as you said you would. Others on zero hours might be doing it for reasons secondary to none disposable income and just be inconvenienced. So again same as the self employed, life changing for some but just inconvenience for others

I'm self-employed and haven't so far been called for jury service. It would be inconvenient and I'd lose money, but that's one of the risks of being self-employed, along with no sickness benefit etc. In my opinion, the freedom of my work far outweighs the possible risks. Other self-employed people will have different circumstances, though.

Single parents or carers would find it far more difficult than I would.

I do know someone who had to defer as he was called during his A levels. That seems like a reasonable excuse to me.

It's clear that jury service is far more than an inconvenience for many, but a real threat to their livelihood! Where's the justice in an honest person losing £000s because their business went under in order to sit on a jury to convict a someone of a crime who's given a £250 fine? Surely even the most ardent defenders of the current system can't fail to see that this is utterly perverse.

To those who say 'that's the price of justice', why on earth is our current jury system the only possible decent way to dispense justice? Yes, there are merits in selecting at random '12 men (and women of course', good and true' , but just because we decided this was a good idea in medieval times doesn't mean we should slavishly adopt it today without any consideration to the damage it can do to innocent jury members.

Beetsviolin-all of those consequences would have arisen if the person was involved in an accident and was in hospital for 2 weeks or more. That's what insurance is for, and having a contingency plan.

Today I am watching the events commemorating 10 yrs since the 7/7 bombings. People have lost their legs, and mothers are talking about losing their sons and daughters. So to hear people on here saying 2 weeks jury service is a catastrophe is a complete joke. Some of you need to take a reality check.

TTWK - you're comparing apples and pears. We are powerless to stop accidents. We have the power to change how justice is administered.

As for 7/7, of course the impact of jury service pales into insignificance against this, and if the current jury system were the only way to ensure justice was administered in cases as serious as this, then fine.... But you're using the most extreme and horrific UK crime in generations to justify the perpetration of a jury system that covers all the 1,000s of crimes that end up in crown court every year.

But lurked, I've said that all alone it needs to be on a case by case basis In the case of self-employed though it's more likely the knock-on effect will last longer as we have customers/clients who will likely go elsewhere in a lot of cases.

TTWK I think it's tasteless and insensitive to bring that up and use it in an argument. Of course none of us compare it to that. Oh I've lost my house and I'm homeless but I've still got my legs! For god's sake. Who thinks like that? There's always someone worse off. We don't need you spelling it out.

So we can't argue anything as we haven't been victims of a terrorist attack? In my life losing my house would be a catastrophe, not an annoyance as you downplayed it, but of course it still wouldn't be as bad as having been affected by 7/7. Do you really have to point that out?

If I got called up for jury service I wouldn't get paid, which would mean that the mortgage wouldn't either. I would have the option to use my holiday, but, with a disabled DS, I tend to keep my holiday for emergencies.

I still wouldn't try and get out of doing it. It's part of being an adult in the UK. Don't like it? Go elsewhere, it's not like jury service is a new thing, is it?

If I got called up for jury service I wouldn't get paid, which would mean that the mortgage wouldn't either...I still wouldn't try and get out of doing it. It's part of being an adult in the UK. Don't like it? Go elsewhere, it's not like jury service is a new thing, is it?

You'd rather potentially lose your house than try to defer/absent from jury duty?

Very noble, but I think that view would be a minority one.

It's ok, I've solved it.
Make jury service compulsory, with a low daily allowance.
Make it illegal for employers to pay their employees anything additional during that period, no matter how long.
Make it legal for, and encourage, employers to terminate or renogotiate contracts with their employees during the jury service period.

There. We're all equal! Everybody happy?

What happens if you work in an hourly paid position, and get called in as a potential juror then sent home, but your shift has already been covered so no work? Do you stil get loss of earnings paid?

Everything about jury duty is awful.

But it's better than the alternatives, so suck it up everyone.