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AIBU?

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Original poster

AIBU to think self employed people should be exempt from Jury Service?

189 replies

Petal02 · 07/07/2015 14:33

Yes, I know everyone should do their civic duty but ….

DH is self-employed, and the winter months are his busiest season. He was originally asked to do Jury Service in November, but requested a deferral on the grounds that two weeks out during his peak season would be a disaster for a sole trader. The ‘compensation for lost earnings’ is just over £60 per day (or £32 if you’re only needed for a half day) for a two week jury service period, which is way, way short of DH’s usual earnings. And whichever time of year he was called, we knew he was going to take a fairly significant hit, financially.

Thankfully a deferral was granted, and he was given a revised start date of Monday 6 July.

So ……. DH obviously didn’t accept any work for the period w/c 6 July or w/c 13 July (even though he planned to try and fit a few small jobs in). On the afternoon of Friday 3 July he got a phone call saying he wouldn’t be needed on Monday 6th, and that he was to phone up after 5pm on Monday 6th, to see if he would be needed for Tuesday 7th. The Court Officer went on to say that it was likely he may not have to attend at all, but he had to stay on standby for the two week period, phoning up after 5pm each day, to enquire about the following day. Which is just a joke for a self-employed person.

As it turned out, when he phoned on Monday night, he was then stood down for his entire period of jury service. But in the meantime he’d turned down a lot of work, and even though he’s now able to accept jobs again for the coming fortnight, we’ve made quite a loss and I’m really not happy.

I don’t think the self-employed should have to do this. DH had to work really hard to pull a small business through the recession, and jury service has been unhelpful.

OP posts:
MrsCampbellBlack · 07/07/2015 14:59

Crosspost with threebean Smile

There was a thread about this recently and someone said you could refuse to do jury service and pay a fine of £1k instead - is this true? As may work out cheaper for some people.

And I know all about civic duty but for some people - it isn't only their own livelihoods that would be at stake if they were on a jury for months.

Teabagbeforemilk · 07/07/2015 14:59

girlandboy if it happened to you soon, you would ask to defer it. So you can plan for it happening. At some point both you and dh will have to have time off together. Unless you are planning on never having a holiday or even a few days together forever.

Dh and I run our business with 1 pt employee, who could not take over my role. So I get where you are coming from. have been going a year and one of us could have time off, if we got notice. It's not practical to never have time off together.

It's unlikely to happen anytime soon and won't happen to both at once.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 07/07/2015 15:00

I stand corrected then Three.

However I didn't say se people should be exempt, I said their payment should reflect their earnings. So if people aren't being paid by their companies, then their payment should reflect their earnings too.

I don't think anyone should be exempt, nor do I think anyone should be out of pocket.

Teabagbeforemilk · 07/07/2015 15:01

I think self employed people forget the perks of being self employed.

There are perks to being employed and perks to being self employed. Jury service is something all citizens should do

MsGee · 07/07/2015 15:03

I don't think its unreasonable to think its a PITA for self employed people - that said, it can be a pain for others too.

I think its right that you can apply for a deferral or exemption if the circumstances allow, whether you are self employed or not.

I am not sure why if it would be so hard for DH he didn't apply for an exemption?

When I was called for jury service I applied for an exemption on the basis of being a sole director of a company, childcare, and a couple of other personal factors and it was granted without problems. I have friends who work for companies who have been exempt because of their jobs /circumstances too. So, I have to think that the system works ok!

Lateswim16 · 07/07/2015 15:05

Tea I think the people working for the public sector have no idea what it's like to be self employed.

Isn't it the case that sickness and absence rates are far higher in the public sector as employees are paid sick leave and holidays. Wink

I agree with Lonny no one should be exempt but no one should be out of pocket either.

deriant · 07/07/2015 15:08

I work for a tiny company. It caused us real hardship when an employee was on 6 weeks jury service.
And employers don't have to pay, which is why you can get loss of earnings, but only up to a certain amount.

Anon4Now2015 · 07/07/2015 15:08

And what about those who don't have salaried employment but get paid an hourly rate that differs from week to week depending on the number of hours they do? Again a lot of such work varies seasonally and they would be just as impacted by jury service as someone who is self-employed.

What about SAHP who don't have any alternative childcare?

What about people who provide childcare for others and so may mean that people in the same position as your DH have to take two weeks off unpaid not because they themselves are on jury service but because they have no childcare because of jury service?

It's not as simple as just making an exemption for the self-employed as many people other people are equally affected and if exemptions were made for them all there would be nobody left to do the jury service

TTWK · 07/07/2015 15:09

You can buy insurance to cover the financial loss of being called for jury service. It's not very expensive. If you fail to buy it, then that's your call. But don't moan about being out of pocket.

Sleepsoftly · 07/07/2015 15:11

Necessity is the mother of invention.
A new form of insurance perhaps?

deriant · 07/07/2015 15:12

I do feel sorry for those who end up on a case that goes on for months.
And I have been called for jury service twice. First time I was in a salaried post and it was simply a mild inconvenience. The second time it acused me real difficulties and financial loss.

Teabagbeforemilk · 07/07/2015 15:13

lateswim i don't know. I am self employed...and take the perks and accept the shit bits. I have never been employed in the public sector.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 07/07/2015 15:15

YANBU.If DP was called for just service he would lose his business. He is a one man band in a very specialist area. Fortunately he has been taken off the lost.

Yes, everyone should do service but not when doing jury service means you will lose your livliehood.

MamanOfThree · 07/07/2015 15:19

It's more difficult than that though.
You can be self employes but have some people working with/for you than take up the slack, just like they do when you go away on hols. In that case, it is an inconvenience, more than if you are employed but not life and death.

If you are properly a sole trader and no one can cover for you, it's a different issue altogether. Being called means NO MONEY at all coming in whilst you still have to pay all the overheads etc... So you are likely to be really out of pocket.

Not sure what would the answer though because you can't quite judge all that on the case to case basis. You need rules.

Siarie · 07/07/2015 15:19

Jury service insurance maximums wouldn't cover the amount we would lose if my DH had to do jury service Hmm.

WhetherOrNot · 07/07/2015 15:23

For £300 a week doing Jury Service a lot of people would snap your hand off - that is WAY above what a lot of people are earning!!!

LurkingHusband · 07/07/2015 15:24

There was a similar thread recently.

All we can deduce from the current state of affairs, is that the UK isn't prepared to invest much in justice (this is using LHs little-known but effective bullshit filter of examining what actually happens as opposed to what people talk about).

Incidentally, depending where you are, if you turn up in a wheelchair, you'll get sent home immediately. Which is what happened to someone MrsLH knows. The court was completely unadapted (which raises questions about less-able defendants, judges, ushers, witnesses and solicitors !) so they were excused. The irony being they had all the time in the world to do jury service.

19lottie82 · 07/07/2015 15:25

I have been requested to attend for Jury Service 3 times, but never been picked. When they have made their selection they ask if anyone has a valid reason why they can't do it, if the selected would be juror does have such a reason, then they can present their case and it's at the courts discression to dismiss them. I'm pretty sure this would be a valid reason.

19lottie82 · 07/07/2015 15:26

For £300 a week doing Jury Service a lot of people would snap your hand off - that is WAY above what a lot of people are earning!!!

You only get what you would have lost in wages. They won't give you £300 if you only earn 3200 a week.

It may be WAY more than what a lot of people earn, but it's also WAY less than the average wage in the UK, which I think is a bit of a joke tbh.

19lottie82 · 07/07/2015 15:27

whoooops that should say £200 a week, obviously!

girlandboy · 07/07/2015 15:27

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, How has your DP been taken off the list? I can't see anything on the jury service website that says that can happen.

My DH is a "one man band specialist" too, and he would lose the business. It would be ok for me to do jury service because I only do all the office work side of things, but he's actually out there doing his "specialist" service. If he doesn't go out, then there is no business.

And no Teabagbeforemilk, we aren't planning on a holiday this year. We managed 4 days away last year, but I can't see it happening this year.

Tuskerfull · 07/07/2015 15:30

YABVU. All sorts of people can and do end up out of pocket from jury service, being self-employed should not be a special case. Instead, argue for proper compensation for jury service for everyone.

Pumpkinpositive · 07/07/2015 15:33

Is there such at thing as jury service insurance for SE people?

I sympathise, OP. I am self employed and finally got the letter of doom last year, before Xmas. I sent them a "Dear John" letter in reply and haven't heard anything since.

Luckily, I am one of only a very small number who work in my field in the country and am in and out of courts regularly. I am hoping they wouldn't want me on that basis anyway, and that I don't hear from them again. Smile

Pumpkinpositive · 07/07/2015 15:34

For £300 a week doing Jury Service a lot of people would snap your hand off - that is WAY above what a lot of people are earning!!!

Not really relevant to those who earn a lot more than £300 a week and have livestyles and outgoings which reflect this.

girlandboy · 07/07/2015 15:39

But as I've said, it's not just a case of being out of pocket if you're self employed. Jury service for my DH would lose us the company. And that means the £30,000 we invested in starting it up would be gone, and the business would be ended. No amount of insurance for lost earnings will cover the loss of a business.