AIBU to think self employed people should be exempt from Jury Service?

[Petal02]

Yes, I know everyone should do their civic duty but ….

DH is self-employed, and the winter months are his busiest season. He was originally asked to do Jury Service in November, but requested a deferral on the grounds that two weeks out during his peak season would be a disaster for a sole trader. The ‘compensation for lost earnings’ is just over £60 per day (or £32 if you’re only needed for a half day) for a two week jury service period, which is way, way short of DH’s usual earnings. And whichever time of year he was called, we knew he was going to take a fairly significant hit, financially.

Thankfully a deferral was granted, and he was given a revised start date of Monday 6 July.

So ……. DH obviously didn’t accept any work for the period w/c 6 July or w/c 13 July (even though he planned to try and fit a few small jobs in). On the afternoon of Friday 3 July he got a phone call saying he wouldn’t be needed on Monday 6th, and that he was to phone up after 5pm on Monday 6th, to see if he would be needed for Tuesday 7th. The Court Officer went on to say that it was likely he may not have to attend at all, but he had to stay on standby for the two week period, phoning up after 5pm each day, to enquire about the following day. Which is just a joke for a self-employed person.

As it turned out, when he phoned on Monday night, he was then stood down for his entire period of jury service. But in the meantime he’d turned down a lot of work, and even though he’s now able to accept jobs again for the coming fortnight, we’ve made quite a loss and I’m really not happy.

I don’t think the self-employed should have to do this. DH had to work really hard to pull a small business through the recession, and jury service has been unhelpful.

A bit more than annoying. It's not unrealistic in my situation I couldn't bounce back from that and could lose my house. How do you rate that? A bit more than annoying but not a catastrophe? Where is it on the sliding scale? What then? Homelessness? Pretty catastrophic perhaps with no family or backup?

There is no right under UK law to paid time off for jury service.

Why? Jurors can claim expenses but why should the employer pick up the tab when the employee isn't working?

Because big companies/organisations can bear the cost better than an individual can plus they're unlikely to be paying out for loads on jury service at the same time. Smaller companies much more difficult but in some cases they could still get by, especially if it can be deferred to a quieter period if possible. The expenses they pay wouldn't cover my outgoings by a long shot.

No employers don't have to make up the difference. I know my contract has a clause to that effect. Some may do (public sector) but it is not the norm. Can you still volunteer for jury service? Dh did as a student (was when solicitors were barred from being jurors do he thought he'd have a go before he couldn't )

A bit more than annoying. It's not unrealistic in my situation I couldn't bounce back from that and could lose my house. How do you rate that?

So 2 weeks illness and you business goes down?? If your business is that fragile it probably doesn't deserve to survive.

I'd find something else to do for a living if I were you. The uncertainty must mean little quality of life.

So 2 weeks illness and you business goes down?? If your business is that fragile it probably doesn't deserve to survive.

Said no self employed person ever.

I'd find something else to do for a living if I were you. The uncertainty must mean little quality of life.

And in this climate of economic prosperity and bountifulness, decent, well paying jobs are just falling off the trees in spades, aren't they?

Employers don't have insurance to cover employee sickness . Where have you got that from? And of course the employer suffers a loss if the employee is absent (either through getting in cover or through loss of productivity)

I'm with you on the fact that its hard for self employed people. I would lose thousands if called. But that doesn't mean that employers should pick up the tab for the cost of jury service for employees.

TTWK that's just ridiculous. If I was off for two weeks then my business would be severely impacted. But I run a very successful law firm.

Ego if that's even true then its certainly not very common. I'm an employment lawyer and have never come across it.

TTWK, you don't know anything about my business. Many self-employed people on here have commented about not just the loss of two weeks' earnings but the loss of clients if you're away from offering a service for that time, so potentially it's more than two weeks - in my case they might find someone else quite quickly. The market in what I do has got smaller over the years so I can't go out and find more clients to replace lost ones immediately - that takes time, possibly 6 months, as I said, to get back to the same position. I couldn't take that loss.

How patronising to say find something else to do for a living. Yes, it's uncertain but that's life sometimes - not just for me but for many. I'm early 50s, you can't just change career that easily at this age in life. Don't comment when you don't know the details of how people's individual lives work. As I also said in time, a few years from now, I can take that hit a bit better. Right now my outgoings are such that I can't.

Judges, expert witnesses, barristers, all clock up to £600 ph, but jury members are paid £60 a day.

The trial I was on wrecked three jurors' businesses because it was supposed to be a two week trial but ran on for months. People just lost all their clients. I lost my best paying client who expected everything done yesterday to perfection. It's a system based on the assumption that everyone works for a big organisation that can absorb the loss of them for a while. It hits the self employed very hard.

Be warned if you are self employed that you can turn them down once for that reason but not twice, so if they call you and it's not your busiest time of year, say yes and get it out of the way. Or if you are within reach of London but get offered a local county court instead, say yes. Better than being stuck at the Old Bailey on trials that stop you sleeping at night for months afterwards.

TTWK - So 2 weeks illness and you business goes down?? If your business is that fragile it probably doesn't deserve to survive. That sounds incredibly pompous and insulting.

Nice to know that starting a business, and it being a tenuous/complicated/scary/possibly risky thing, but is something that you're prepared to have a go at "probably doesn't deserve to survive", if 2 weeks off is going to have a major impact.

Cheers for that!

YABU because, as has been mentioned up thread, not all employees get paid their full wage for attending jury service. Equally, disabled people - with few exceptions - are often forced to put their health in jeopardy. If anyone should be exempt, it should be people on heath grounds not business grounds.

good advice Betty

There was a high court round my gaff a few years ago that were struggling to fill a vacant judge's position. Position had been advertised a number of times. Word was it no-one was willing to work for the paltry figure on offer - a piddling £175,00 p/a.

Not enough to support the weekly Waitrose shop, clearly.

Puts the £60 p/d for jurors into some perspective. Us and them, people. Us and them.

TTWK you are not thinking broadly about how some businesses function. Here's some examples from when I was on jury service. One man ran his own garage. When cars breakdown mechanics are needed immediately. He'd told clients that he would be away two weeks. In the end it was two months. That's new and old clients having to find other places to mend their cars. He was worried sick people wouldn't return to him.
Another self employed person was an actor. Three auditions for long running shows came in during the trial as well as countless auditions for short term contracts. he was refused the right to go to any of them. This may have resulted not in the loss of two weeks work but of three years in the West End.
A third was a caterer. She got booked up months in advance for weddings and anniversaries. People chose her because they loved what she did - her recipes and menus. She had to let all those people down. She found cover, so they had alternative caterers. But caterers who aren't booked up weeks in advance aren't as good. And there was no way she could run through every single one of her very intricate menus for them. Catering thrives on people being at a party and saying - Oh can I have your card? She lost not only two months work but all the work that she'd have got on the back of those jobs.
You can tell who are the employed jurors. They're the ones lapping up all the gruesome details of the trial and flirting in the jurors café. They treat it like an escape from the drudgery of work. The self employed are pale and glued to their laptops and phones trying to keep their livelihood afloat.