To wonder why so many women allow themselves to be downtrodden martyrs?

[Flashbangandgone]

I've been wondering this since reading in a thread earlier about bbqs where various posters complained about doing all the shopping, preparation, clearing up etc. only for their dps to get all the glory for standing over a bbq turning prepared meat for 20 minutes whilst they appear to sulk in the background.

There's nothing overly abusive or extreme about the behaviour here... just low grade stuff, but it just to be typical for many (not all, or even most, just quite a lot of people it seems)

I can't imagine a man acting in this way...

Why oh why?

I was brought up by my Irish grandparents and its actually my grandfather who reminds me of the women on this thread. He always did all the cooking and baking (he was a baker by trade) and to this day his self-defined role in the family is to feed people, stay in the background and make absolutely no emotional demands on anyone. My grandmother never lifted a finger in the kitchen except when my grandfather was seriously ill, when she would throw together beans on toast. My grandfather was also very involved and hands on with me and his own children - nappies, night feeds, the lot. Oddly the GPs allied together in martyring themselves for their children and for me though - none of us ever lifted a finger at home

Everyone I know except me puts up with it in my RL

Me too. It's sadly very much the norm where I live

It's ok to say that people should be chatting about these issues with their partners but I expect most people have. My XH would just agree that we needed to share the load but then wouldn't do anything about it. If I hadn't done his washing/cooking/etc we would have been living in a pigsty so for my sake and the kid's sake I did everything. I've been divorced for more than 13 years now and I haven't regretted it for one minute. It was a horrible way to live.

This is a really interesting thread.

I know a woman who talks about having two kids (meaning her husband) and it s such an unappealing picture, this giant manchild who cannot clean or cook or look after the kids.

She seems almost proud of this? I think because then she appears capable and resourceful or something- also in her case I think it's used as defence against going back to work (I can see her point here as I know she hated her job).

It centres around children I think. Whatever about housework, many many men of the older generation had nothing to do with childcare, especially not babies. Women are judged on their housekeeping skills to an extent today but it was far worse in the 60s/70s/80s. With no children, housework is a pain but manageable and I think a lot of women get satisfaction from fulfilling the feminine role of homemaker - making a house lovely and clean and comfortable. It's something I've experienced myself - young successful woman moves in with a man and suddenly gets concerned with baking and soft furnishings. Then baby arrives. And the woman still wants to have the lovely comfortable home and be a good mother (part of which involves being organised, on top of things, clean). She is tired and hormonal, weighed down by huge responsibility, getting up regularly in the night, and suddenly the housework seems insurmountable. Very very few men step up in that situation IME. It's a horrible place for the woman and I think many don't recover. The house is a source of huge anxiety- they can't relax, they must do things or everything will fall apart. It's the equivalent to a workaholic - someone who just won't delegate and who believes everything will fall down if they're not there. Workaholics tend to be men who are rewarded for their efforts with money and accolades (but who massively miss out family wise) while 'martyrs' tend to be women, who miss out on a wider life.

I was on the recent thread following the blogpost about getting DC to do chores around the house, how challenging it could be, and worrying about the long-term consequences.

Several people came on to say that they'd never been expected to lift a finger around the house, but it was all OK because now as adults, they were perfectly capable around the house.

Of course, without exception, the people saying this were women. Of course they 'came right'.

If you raise a son to expect all housework and tidying to magically be done by fairies, why on earth would you think he might 'come right' as soon as some poor sod woman is lumbered with him?

He won't. He'll just expect his partner to do it. Men's and women's experiences and expectations in this area are vastly different, and it's interesting trying to unpick why.

I agree with all of that TheDowager.

When people ask me how I 'got' ds1 to do cooking and housework and stuff I am often answering it incorrectly. I think it was simply that we always had the expectation that he would do it sitting alongside the example of DH and I equally sharing those roles.
We had a cleaner too but he never got a message here that he was exempt from this stuff.

We'd go to people's houses and at the end of a meal he would start clearing the table . People would say 'oh you've got him well trained' but always said it to me. Never DH.

It's expectation. You are so right.

Nikkifury I agree with all you've said and think your posts are very insightful, you've said everything I think but have articulated it a lot better than I would have done.

I work ft, dh part time. Domestic chores split 60/40 ( me the 60%) BUT the chores I choose I enjoy , I work in a sedentary job and enjoy giving the dog a long walk/ doing the kitchen with my music on etc.
My mum and dad both mucked in and me &my 2 brothers all do a share.
I do know a woman ( not family) who has infantised her husband to a ridiculous level. He cannot cook, clean, set the heating, work the sky plus or manage a mobile. It's a control issue imo.

Thanks very much Rooby

It's very difficult ias a woman to keep to all The Rules that we should follow to make us good women, wives and mothers, to take in and process all the mixed messages isn't it? On the one hand we need to take care of our families, be there holding everything together and many people have been socialised to expect this, so that's one very strong message. On the other we need to be teaching our children to be independent and able to self care (at the earliest age possible according to MN), we also need to ensure that we choose the right partner who will be willing to share the equal load with us and who adheres to those values. It's a lot of pressure.

The one thing we can be sure of though us that no matter which route we choose there will definitely be someone there waiting to sneer, blame and moan about the choices we made and tell us we are getting it wrong and that includes other women, especially younger ones who have had the opportunity to do things differently.

My Mum did everything and worked full time. My Dad worked away a lot and it all fell to her. She was shouty and terrifyingly aggressive with her children. I look back now and feel sorry for her for all she had to do and how little help she got. Unfortunately we don't get on well because there were patterns contributed to greatly by our circumstances that meant I grew up being frightened and unhappy. She was forced to do everything, forced into that role, so was constantly tired, stressed and resentful and at the end of all that has a very poor relationship with her children.

It's all a bit crap really.

AndDeepBreath Thank you for your post and kind words. I Googled "Rapunzel syndrome" but got some medical condition about ingesting hair Don't suppose you know of any reading on the topic of infantalising parents? My mother definitely spills over into the 'abusive' category, hence why I've been no-contact with her for 3 years. Only now (at age 33) am I finding the confidence to seize my independence. Shameful as that is to 'normal' folk.

My MIL is the worst kind of domestic martyr - constantly shattered, while doing very little.

I noticed early in my relationship with DH that at family meals she would flap about & fuss, & keep getting up for stuff while we ate, then be exhausted as she had done so much. But my gorgeous, uncomplaining FIL had actually made most of the meal, set the table, cleared away, washed up - her contribution had been bobbing up to say 'do you want this? Shall I get that?' and maybe putting out napkins.

She has never worked outside the home (or in the home, as far as i can see), but is constantly worn out by 'trying to do too much'.

She silver lining to her useless martyrdom is that DH just get on and does all domestic stuff, which is great as I am no domestic martyr type.

Hi FunFun - oh no, I'm so sorry about that! I call it the Rapunzel thing in my head because of the Tangled/Mother Gossedge character who painfully reminds me of my mum, and I wrote it without quite meaning to.

Your post really resonated with me though, and people who haven't grown up in those backgrounds don't always understand. I don't know about you, but my 20s flashed by in a pattern of low-level jobs filled with bullying bosses and terrible conflict resolution on my part. It was only in my early 30s that I began to work out who I was, and why I was the way I was. I learned that taking responsibility for my own actions involved holding other people responsible for theirs too - and I will never forget the first moment of relief when I realised that I could rightfully be angry about some of the things my mum did to me as a child. As a result, I'm so much more mature, relaxed and confident than I was just a few years ago - and you will be too by tackling these issues.

Sorry though, I don't mean to ramble or derail this thread! To properly answer your question, there are definitely resources (and mumsnet members) who can help you as you move forward. Can I recommend taking a look at the long running dysfunctional families thread if you haven't seen it? I think that might be the best place for now - everyone's welcome, no matter what the family background

This is an interesting thread.

I 'run the home' and do the majority of childcare. Cooking is 50:50. I also work part time since having children.

I am not a martyr about it, and my husband seems to respect me!

I leave certain things to him to do , such as sorting the car MOTs.

The reason? Women are better at being homemakers and providing childcare.

Whilst women shouldn't be doormats I also think feminism can be taken to the other extreme. It's natures way that women and men are different, we should stop trying to be both.

In the workplace I think men are naturally better leaders and women are better at showing empathy to others.

I'll probably get slated now but that's ok. It's a good discussion.

For what it's worth, I have a degree and profession, but I don't want to be a man I want to be a women!

I'm not going to slate you Howmany as everyone is entitled to their opinion but I couldn't disagree more. DH and I met at work, in a graduate scheme and actually I was much more suited to the 'leadership' type of things than he was. Nothing to do with wanting to 'be a man', everything to do with me just being me, with my own personality. I'm not very domesticated at all, obviously I do clean etc but it doesn't in any way come naturally to me because I'm a woman.

Some interesting points.

I am pretty shocked at the slagging of women though. And the oversimplification of the subject.

Men can be martyrs too - but in a different sphere. Working for low wages in jobs they hated where they were regularly humiliated but made to feel it was their role to provide for the family. How many men married to the "Martyr" women of previous generations would have said "OK, I'm sick of this -I'll do the cooking - you go to work"

It was a division of labour and both were trapped by it.

But it isn't about division of labour or the traditional womans role. It is a out a certain special sort of domestic martyrdom, unrelated to the amount of actual work and effort put in, that certain women seem to delight in.

My DH does shit loads round the house, but not with a laborious sigh, whimpers about how exhausted he is from doing so much, and irritating fussing over things no one wants or needs.

It is the pinnacle of passive aggression, doing things for people, but in a way that makes them feel crap, while not letting them get on with doing it for themselves.

howmanywotwots:

just because it's true for you, as an individual woman, doesn't mean it's true for all women.

I'm a mediocre housekeeper and I tried to be a good mother to my young child but I was honestly bored out of my mind a lot of the time. My partner is a lot better at the baking, crafty, traditional mothering type shit with our DD than I ever was, and he's a man. Oh, and he's also a leader, and so am I. we lead differently though.

I can't wait for the day we stop, as a culture, gendering certain attributes and just accepting people for who they are.

Anyway, carry on.

I think it's generational.

My mother thinks it terrible that I don't chain myself to the stove, 7 days a week (I don't cook on Fridays and Saturdays and give myself a break by having a takeaway or going out to eat on those nights).

But this is a slovenly way to be in her eyes.
Men need a full cooked meal EVERY day of the week! Dontcha know?

brickinit I would love to see what your mum thought of me, I genuinely can't remember when I last cooked a meal . DH does all the cooking in our house, it's his hobby and his way of winding down when he gets home from work. I maybe cooked about 3 months ago...

Why is it women are 'better' at being homemakers and providing childcare? What particular qualities that only women possess make us better at these things?

If men need a full cooked meal at the end of the day then men can shuffle to the cooker and make their own. Or employ a personal chef.

There are always some people who will think 'I like this' and conclude that everyone else does too, really. Especially if it's a stereotype.

If you have leadership qualities as a woman you are often told you are 'bossy'. It's not a valued trait, so you don't always get positive feedback on it. Whereas if you are 'nurturing' that's seen as much more appropriate.

We should celebrate all our good qualities imho, not just judge which woman is being the most 'womanly' and hold that up as the standard to aspire to- and conclude if you don't fit that narrow stereotype you are in some way failing.

It's great that women in the UK have the right to choose what kind of life we want, I certainly don't think all women are or should be the same but on the whole they are more nurturing than men, always there will be exceptions which is good

Anyway, drifting further from the point there..martyrs are annoying. Either do what you do and be happy about it, or don't do it. I guess some people like to be congratulated or sympathised with