To wonder why so many women allow themselves to be downtrodden martyrs?

[Flashbangandgone]

I've been wondering this since reading in a thread earlier about bbqs where various posters complained about doing all the shopping, preparation, clearing up etc. only for their dps to get all the glory for standing over a bbq turning prepared meat for 20 minutes whilst they appear to sulk in the background.

There's nothing overly abusive or extreme about the behaviour here... just low grade stuff, but it just to be typical for many (not all, or even most, just quite a lot of people it seems)

I can't imagine a man acting in this way...

Why oh why?

Nicki I actually find the opposite. I see lots of people on mumsnet moaning that they do all the domestic tasks. In real life I don't know anyone who would put up with it!

It seems from reading on here that some women will put up with virtually anything to keep a man in their lives. What does it teach their children?

I've lived alone for many years and have really enjoy my life and would not put up with the behaviour by men I see described on here every day.

Everyone I know except me puts up with it in my RL. I am divorced and my refusal to put up with it was cited as a direct reason (one of many) for my marriage break down.

I am ok with that .

My parents were latch key kids, two working parents, - expected to take care of themselves from young age - and in one case a younger sibling including meal preparation.

So not sure I agree with view it's a new idea that children should know how to take care of themselves and do housework.

Do agree there is an element of control - but then I grew up always being in the wrong as if I helped it was wrong if I didn't I was wrong and lazy and poor Mum. No-one could win.

Though perhaps it was a period of time thing - as my parents were taught how to do stuff as it was expected while DH and I are mostly self taught - or begrudgingly taught after nagging or others have taught us stuff.

"To wonder why so many women allow themselves to be downtrodden martyrs?"

That puts the onus on the 'martyr' to fix things. Yet another fucking chore!

You should be asking the question the other way around. Why do people who supposedly love that woman watch her martyring herself and do fuck all about it?

It’s weird as my Mum facilitates my Dad being lazy, however unlike some, she doesn’t moan about it.

When we were growing up, she stayed at home… he worked – My Mum also did all the cooking, cleaning, washing, gardening….

Now both my parents work (my Mum looks after my sisters kid 4 days a week and works 2 nights at a supermarket as well as 10 hour shifts on both Saturday and Sunday so gets one day off a week) My mother STILL does all the cooking, cleaning, washing, gardening…. My Father sits on his arse, watching TV. He also calls my Mother ‘stupid’ regularly and tells her she ‘talks nonsense’

Out of her 4 daughters, 3 of us seem to have very little tolerance for lazy men. Unfortunately my sister who’s married has married a man who spent 50% of their wedding savings on crap, looks up local women who are physically the opposite of my sister, has an emotional affair with a woman at work, is incredibly irresponsible with money and who was an utter waste of space when their daughter was born – I could write pages and pages of how awful he is. However my sister won’t leave him as ‘She doesn’t want to deprive their daughter of their Father’…

I’m so intolerant of anyone disrespecting me – When I was first seeing my partner, we were walking along and he said ‘What are you wittering on about?’ in quite a patronising tone. I went nuts and told him how rude I thought he was being and if he wanted a relationship, he was not to talk to me like that – Years later, he’s never done it since and has never tried to put me down in any way, shape or form.

I am a sahm and I think some of the endless lists are sahms justifying their existence in the face of 'fucking hell, sahms sit at home all day while their husband/partner flogs himself to keep her idle'

My mum is interesting to me as she is 82 and not in the slightest bit miserable or a martyr but she constantly seems to need to be useful. It's sad. She clears up here, won't sit down, constantly asks what she can do to help and often says things like 'I have been totally useless and done nothing today'

I think women like her bought into a narrative of living off the hard work of their partners. Hers started even before that when her dad treated her with the expectation that her usefulness needed to be proven all the time.

I make her sit down. I stop her talking to my DH as if he must be tired and need a rest because he is (actually was) a working man.

It's really hard for her to switch it off. She wants to but her sense of being a woman meaning she does x y and a is just ingrained now. She runs around her partner who is fucking idle but that's another thread tbh

I know I will bring a huge shower of shite raining down on me but here goes. I hate housework and so does DH. We have a cleaner and have had one throughout periods of him being out of work, me being at home etc.
We have 2 sons in their 20s. Each one of us does their own laundry and cooking. We are all quite messy but we all do a bit to make sure that the dishes are washed and recycling done. It's not the way others live but I would find their way exhausting and boring. My mum was a martyr. She worked outside on the farm and cooked 3 meals a day and cleaned the house. I'm sure she was happy with that. It was her choice. My MiL is a housewife and cook extraordinaire but my DH chose me (a slattern) so slavish martyrdom is not always the way to a man's heart. One very much younger woman said to my DH, "What does she do?" when he said he had a cleaner and did his own laundry. I'm not a feminist but it seems as if we are still in the 1950s as far as housework is concerned.

I'm pretty sure my DH would get very sick of me/lose respect if I developed a martyr attitude. When we met we were both in the same fairly demanding/'high flying' career. All domestic chores were split equally as we worked the same hours. I'm now a SAHM and while that naturally means I've picked up more of the domestic side of things (as I'm around more) it sure as hell doesn't mean I do everything. And if I started whinging about what I do he would talk to me about what needed to happen to make me happier with the situation.

Why do they do this? Boils my piss.

Oh for heaven's sake. There comes a point after which it's your own fault if you can't boil a kettle.

My mum worked more hours than my very lazy dad and still did every single bit of cleaning, cooking, shopping and childcare for our large family. He had ways he wanted it done and she obeyed ......

Very sad, but although this sounds like an extreme case, the culture pervades despite 50 years or so of feminism.... It's when the media cheerfully reinforces this that really gets my goat. The worst one I can remember in recent times was the ASDA Christmas advert a couple of years back.... Mum rushed around 'everything', then it ended with a scene of the Dad, reclining lazily on his chair as his wife finishes clearing up, saying chirply and oblivious to his wife's efforts 'what's for tea love'... to which we were supposedly all meant to roll our eyes, chuckle inwardly, and think, 'yes, they've got family life at Christmas nailed!'

I agree for the post part but am at posters in their 30s who are blaming mummy for everything!

Don't be a victim! Everyone can choose to grow up at some point. Evidently, some people choose not to!

Well, at the risk of being flamed here, I think there's "blaming mummy for everything" and recognising what impact an upbringing has had on you. I suspect people with the former attitude haven't understood what it's like to grow up with parents who aren't just "less than perfect" but are actively difficult or borderline-abusive. In these homes it's not "oh woe is me, it's difficult to be a mum" but "woe is me, you are worthless and the cause of it all" - which is a different sort of setup from the one I think some of you have in mind.

My mum was a classic martyr and an unpleasant woman in many different ways. One of the ways she controlled us was by doing everything herself and criticising everything we tried to do/scaring us with horror stories of bleach etc. She moaned endlessly about having to do everything herself, but worked very hard at telling us we couldn't do it and was furious when we did. It was and is a form of control. I only learned to do things after I moved out, and she still ridicules me today even though my cleaning/cooking standards are higher than hers.

Now that sort of internal influence doesn't vanish at age 18, 21, or 31 - it takes effort. It's the Rapunzel syndrome. Also, you don't get a free pass to hurting someone by being their parent, and as a parent you will sometimes be (rightly) blamed for bad behaviour. I'm in my 30s and I do "blame" her actually - what's done is done, but the way she raised me screwed me up.

So, long post sort - FunFun if you and others like you are still around, well done on pushing through towards independence. It's scary at first but worth it! Don't be put off by people telling you you should have snapped out of it already. That's not how these dynamics always work. Keep at it and be strong.

Sorry, rant over...

Lots of men are still going in to marriage expecting a servant/personal assistant/mummy....and lots of women are still settling for living their lives like this.

I had an interesting conversation yesterday at one of the DC's school events. I turned up late as had been at work. DH had been at the event all afternoon. One of the other mums said to me 'you're so lucky, your DH is so hands-on, he's always at school events and doing stuff with the kids' and a few other mums chimed in with 'yeah, you're SO lucky. I see him doing the food shopping in Tesco/saw him taking the kids to the doctor etc.'

I just thought 'NO. No, I am NOT lucky. I set my expectations out in a partnership. I 'get' the 'help' from DH that I expect/accept.' I didn't say anything, but it made me think...

DH and I both work, but we divvy up all the kids activities and school stuff between us. We take turns shopping and cooking. We share housework (although our standards are low, and we have a cleaner). We do our own laundry, share the DC's. I wouldn't be able to work, have a social life or be a happy person if we didn't safe it ll. I wouldn't want to be married to someone who let me do all of that alone.

*didnt share it all

When I read threads like this I think I am a man, honestly. I do not care if the OH picks up after himself or anything, and I'm messy myself. If anything it's my partner who has martyr tendencies - which I remind him regularly are his problem not mine. But I don't give a rat's ass if people think i'm nice.

IMO some martyrs really need things to be done a certain way, or look a certain way to a certain level of cleanliness before they can relax. So there's an element of controlling-ness there. That's fine, but then accept that's your desire and take responsibility. Spare us all the martyr act. own it.

It's interesting at work though - I work in a very diverse workplace, and some of my male coworkers honestly think, although I work full time as does DH, that I would make him lunch every day and dinner etc and look after all the kid's needs etc. Um, no. No, I don't. FFS. We have a partnership.

They must enjoy it though and get some sort of pleasure from it. Maybe it makes them feel in control of things and needed.
If they aren't enjoying it then they are with the wrong person as who would want to be with somebody like this.

Yes @ morethanpotatoprints, I think some women DO enjoy it, in as much as they get a sense of worth, validation, identity from being a dog's body 'nurturing'.

I have a colleague who is always talking about 'taking care of her man' etc. She fusses over him, packs his lunch, lays out his clothes for work each night (), makes all his appointments for hair cuts/dentist etc for him.

One time she got in a complete tizzy because she was going on a work trip for two nights and was worried he wouldn't eat because he 'cant cook'. This is a 40 yr old man. I find it hard to have any respect for him even more so than for her.

It's a power thing isn't it?

If you tell yourself you're the only one who can do it, the others are all useless, you feel good and important presumably.

I lived in Dublin in the nineties and the older generation of women belonged to an age when married women were legally forbidden to work. I have never in my life met such a set of martyrs and neurotics. They would make out that the husbands were abusive and as soon as their husbands died would pick someone else in their family who was making their lives hell. I suppose martyrhood and masochism is one way of turning an unpleasant situation to your advantage.

I've probably gone to another extreme, but I reckon if you do something for someone you have no right to bring it up and use it to emotionally blackmail them, that takes all the beauty out of the act.

Martyrdom is my MILs trademark weapon of choice.

she doesnt let anyone do anything (especially cleaning) but complains the entire time about how much she has to do and how hard she works. Thats the tip of the ice berg, at worst she openly 'blames' my dh and his brother for her back problems because of the stress they put on her during pregnancy at first I used to laugh as I thought she was joking but she takes it very seriously.

Ha - really interesting thread to read through.

My DMIL was a great housewife, cook and cleaner. When we visited she was never there as she was in the kitchen preparing the next meal. But I think it also absolved her from socializing with us (or anyone else that was there but if you are a full time housewife maybe you dont' have much to say).

DH definitely uses manning the BBQ as a method of avoiding chatting to all the guests. He's not rude but def doesn't mix as much as he prob should.