To wonder why so many women allow themselves to be downtrodden martyrs?

[Flashbangandgone]

I've been wondering this since reading in a thread earlier about bbqs where various posters complained about doing all the shopping, preparation, clearing up etc. only for their dps to get all the glory for standing over a bbq turning prepared meat for 20 minutes whilst they appear to sulk in the background.

There's nothing overly abusive or extreme about the behaviour here... just low grade stuff, but it just to be typical for many (not all, or even most, just quite a lot of people it seems)

I can't imagine a man acting in this way...

Why oh why?

FunFunFun "This thread is a real eye opener. My mother was a martyr and I left home with zero practical life skills. Consequently, in my 30s I'm scared of living alone because I don't know how I'd survive. I have effectively been infantised."

er, maybe I'm harsh but - in your 30s?! Even if you have a martyr mum, if you've ever lived away from her, surely you have figured it out? or do you still live with her?

I'm glad this thread has been started. I've been on MN a month-ish and I'm amazed at some of what I see. I'm glad I don't know people like this IRL. I only knew one and she eventually saw the light and divorced her husband. The relationships thread really makes the mind boggle at what people are putting up with, and seem to have put up with long before becoming financially dependent on a DH - which is a choice in itself. All quite confusing.

meadowquark, good for you to realising that there is a problem and starting to take steps! I wish you all the best.

oh gosh my stepmother is one of those burning martyrs, you can smell the smoke fumes as you walk in the door.
She is always saying something like 'ooh I am asleep on my feet'.
Yet she does the washing for the whole house of adults. she wont let them do it 'in case they make a mess'.
When her washing machine broke down she did it all in the bath on her knees.
When I suggested using a launderette she told me that such places no longer existed.....
IN fact if anyone suggests a solution to her never ending problems, she is quite dismissive.
eg she was moaning about pairing socks and how hard it was to do so many. I suggested getting everyone black socks....
but no I was dismissed.

I have a martyr for a mother and one for a MIL.

They really try and push their views onto us. You find yourself getting defensive as they passive aggressively criticising our house - and my I apparent inability to meet their standards. Sometimes you find you taking on roles because of this pressure without thinking.

I don't do his families cards and stuff - he forgets MIL tries to blame me - but when I did get presents and stuff I was never thanked he was. I had to have one of those wtf am I doing this moments.

YY to the undermining with DC. I ask the DC to do something or they are used to doing a task they sweep in and take it off them.

It not just housework -knitted was another one. One DC wanted to learn, we don't know how, so GM stepped in instead of teaching her how to do things like cast on and off or not drop stiches she sweep in and do it and insists DC waited till she was next here - often finishing pieces and going on how DC had done them. Never showing DC how to do it themselves. 12 month on realised DC wasn't learning at all - turned to YouTube tutorials.

It is more widespread then just my family. My DC like to do breakfast for themselves - it doesn't happen everyday - but they can get things from the fridge, use toasters and microwaves safely. They love doing it and can get quiet pushy wanting me in next room - where they are still visible - but when people hear they act like it child neglect. When we stop at IL - MIL gets the up early so she can control what they have then act like it a big deal and oh isn't she great.

and yes she does infantilise her children...they are in their late twenties to mid thirties and she does their washing while dad does their tea....

Nicki, you forgot to add the old trope of how 'women are socialised' to be XYZ and therefore cannot be expected to take responsibility for their actions.

IN fact if anyone suggests a solution to her never ending problems, she is quite dismissive

That is so my mother - much less so MIL.

these drudges are veritable paragons of femininity I'm sure….

the bastard and the doormat deserve each other

Fucking nice.

Whilst there are many enlightened and interesting views on this thread, and God knows anything that gets people discussing aspects of feminism is vital, I can really do without those of you polishing your feminist halos whilst looking down on 'doormats,' 'martyrs' and 'drudges.'

Who needs men to put women down, eh?

FFS.

I suppose there's no connection between the facts that men don't have this issue with being a domestic martyr and they've had an arena outside the home to make their mark?

Why not let these older women feel appreciated for the work they've done and the work they do rather than taking advantage of it and the sneering about them? They might even relax a bit.

Good post Apocalypse.

" they've had an arena outside the home to make their mark? "

So have most women under the age of 80, these days.

Isn't it only an issue if the woman is unhappy about it?

So like Apocalypse says, if someone is happy and proud of staying at home and keeping home, then let them.

I honestly have been shocked on here at how much housework some posters do. Constant washing, cleaning and tidying. New mothers saying they don't ever sleep and they can't cope, and when pressed say that they spend all the time their baby is asleep doing housework, because otherwise when else would it all get done?!

When I had my son I barely did anything! My partner isn't great at domestic stuff but I honestly can't find it in me to obsess about whether or not the skirting boards are dusted.

Then again, as mothers we need to bring up our sons to make sure they help out with domestic stuff because there are far too many women doing it all for them and it has to stop.

Thurlow, the point the OP is making is that many seem to be unhappy about it and that's why they post.

ApocalypseThen my mum worked when we were growing up and had quite an active social life so it wasn't really that she had nowhere to make her mark. I think it was more that her standards were too high, nobody could match them and nobody was even allowed to try for fear of doing something wrong as it were.

Nicki I 100% take responsibility for my thoughts and actions as an adult. Most people do but it's perfectly acceptable to reflect and find the root cause of why I think/act as I do. Once you know the cause you can overcome it.

I suppose there's no connection between the facts that men don't have this issue with being a domestic martyr and they've had an arena outside the home to make their mark?

Both my mother and MIL worked and have other things, hobbies community stuff, outside the house.

My problem is them finding fault with me now. Discouraging the DC from taking responsibly for tasks that they often want to do - encouraging dependency. Discouraging DH from doing stuff he does now - making out it should all be me - thankfully he mostly ignores.

Also seeking praise for stuff that didn't need doing - that I didn't want doing or for task that I did.

Last move I packed house up nearly killed me sorted our removal firm and paid fof it. Day of move in lull phoned wider family to be told I was moving tomorrow and I was inconsiderate for expecting my parents to sort it all. Next day my parents came for a meal and heard about our move ffs - yet they made out they had done it all.

TBH - I don't have an issue with women doing domestic drudgery if they want to - but do it or don't why the hell waste time moaning about it. If their DP isn't helping talk to them about it as moaning to everyone else isn't solving a dam thing.

Maybe many women don't see it as "domestic drudgery" maybe it's a way of expressing love and care? Which goes entirely unacknowledged because as we all know domestic labour is not respected as it has no earning potential attached. It's interesting to me that when we do it and post here, unhappy because the childcare and domestic work we do goes unacknowledged by our husbands, we receive masses of support and analysis of exactly how much value it has. When it's our Mums and that generation then it's complained about and devalued.

Yes, many are - but as Apocalypse says, some won't be.

However I do very much agree with but do it or don't why the hell waste time moaning about it. If their DP isn't helping talk to them about it as moaning to everyone else isn't solving a dam thing.

There's either a huge issue in a relationship, with probable abuse, and domestic chores are just the tip of the iceberg - but if there's not then why on earth are women just putting up with it? Why not just have a conversation?

Maybe many women don't see it as "domestic drudgery" maybe it's a way of expressing love and care?

If you really love and care about your children you will teach them the basic coping skills they need for life. All adults (sn excepted) should be able to shop, cook, clean, wash their clothes, use transport, manage a budget, make simple repairs/redecorations, mow the grass, make telephone calls, etc. Parents (not just mothers) should be raising their children to be capable, independant adults, not doing it all for them and failing to pass on necessary skills.

Have you read some of the posters' accounts on here. They are saying that their mother would often complain that no-one helped but when people tried to help the mother complained about that too and either refused help or took over.

That's the sort of martydom we are referring to, not women who do it because no-one else will or women who are happy doing it all.

" Maybe many women don't see it as "domestic drudgery" maybe it's a way of expressing love and care? "
sorry but if someone is acting like this with a houseful of infantilised adults, I would say it is coming from a wish for control, which is not 'love and care' tbh.

It's interesting to me that when we do it and post here, unhappy because the childcare and domestic work we do goes unacknowledged by our husbands, we receive masses of support

Isn't there a difference between realising you are in a pattern of behaviour that is making you unhappy and asking for help in how to approach making changes - there still going to have to be a conversation with the other half at end of it as opposed to moaning about poor put upon me.

I have to say I don't think it is a generational thing.

There was lots of this type of moaning at toddler groups - not wanting solutions just moaning about their DP women in their 20 and 30 or 40's. It's a pattern you can almost find yourself copying to fit in.

While both my MIL and mother are like this - I do know many of their generation over my lifetime who just aren't.

Oddly GP - mine and DH while the baby care of changing nappies they didn't share but domestic chores they did - hovering cooking, shopping I don't know if it was always there or came with age/retirement but they did share tasks.

My mil is a martyr. A wonderful one who I get on very well with and actually could't coe without but she's still a martyr. As is her daughter my sil.

SIL spends hours moaning about the ironing she has to do - erm, don't do it or fold / hang properly most things dont need it. Her DH offered to look after hte kids for a couple of hours to get her nails done but she said no as 'the Tesco delivery was coming' and then moans that she doesn't get time on her own.

Drives me batty.

I am not a martyr - far too lazy:)

encouraging dependency

Why do they do this? Boils my piss.

I think many women needed/need domestic control because they had/have so little elsewhere in their lives. I think the moaning comes from a place of wanting their labour acknowledged, which it rarely is. This isn't a theory, I grew up in a very working class environment and these attitudes were standard.

Agree that parents should be preparing their children to be capable adults however this is a relatively recent idea isn't it? Obviously there are some that always thought this but that was the exception rather than the rule hence there being so many men who still think they shouldn't have to lift a finger with childcare or housework or who are seemingly incapable of managing to do it properly because they don't perceive it as their responsibility.

Certainly the tide seems to be changing if MN is anything to go by but in my personal experience this idea is not standard in RL, sadly.

I think it's even worse when mothers do everything for their sons. Waiting on them hand and foot. And then they expect it from their partners. I'm to lazy to be a housework martyr.