AIBU to say that the racism against the Williams sisters never goes away

[derxa]

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11174583/Calling-Serena-Williams-scary-isnt-just-sexist-its-racist-too.html

Just that. I think they're fantastic sportswomen and every commentary on every game seems to make out that they are the bogey man/woman fighting against the delicate flower on the other side of the net.

Fair enough, take the "likely" out. It doesn't alter the tone of the post.

But it does. It does entirely. The fact that you can casually cast doubt over the genuine and sustained racism that has occurred says everything about how you just.do.not.get.it.

No amount of posts from me will change that because ultimately, the truth is that you just dont think it is all that important.

That one word is so completely minimising. It's so offensive.

"Oh these crazy black people imagining racism when it isnt there. And gosh, isnt she aggressive. Sharapova isnt like that".

It's like me saying 9/11 "wasnt that bad".

Astounding.

I'm not casting doubt over "the genuine and sustained racism". I'm saying she's earned the aggressive label all by herself. Yes, she's been subjected to unacceptable racism but she also subjected someone to unacceptable bullying. Minimising the latter as "she swore" is laughable. Like I said, I liked her before that, I don't now. If changing my opinion of her after watching her threatening a lines woman, swearing at her and waving her racket threateningly at her somehow makes me racist, I'd genuinely be interested to hear why. Prior to that I admired her athleticism and thought she was a fantastic role model.

Did you see it?

Not sure how we got into this cul de sac but just to be clear:

No one is defending her outburst, i do not condone swearing bullying etc by any player

We did discuss earlier on how certain words are often used in a sterotypical manner depending on the race of the person being described - see my comments "aggressive thug" v "troubled" - which you didnt answer.

I did also challenge what in MY opinion is random nitpicking ie possibly greatest female player of all time but picked on for not being "smiley" enough - that was an individual's view and am not picking on that poster i just wonder why that or her bum size or her build even matters when she is so exceedingly successful at her actual job.

So fair enough if you stopped liking her post outburst.

But thread was about racism. And got derailed. Like most discussions about racism where the "victims" are the minority in the discussion.

I must try to sleep now am getting too wound up

I will look up the outburst on video tomorrow, i promise.

Well said Eminado. It always puzzles me slightly when people refuse to see whats in plain sight, then will try to tell you that racims doesn't exist where it clearly does; The Williams sisters are dealt both the racist and sexist hand. 1 does not cancel out the other and its there, even if there's a denial of it.

Yes threads about racism very often get derailed...there always has to be "another aspect" brought in. Ive gotten used to it albeit its beyond stupid now. The aggressive black woman stereotype is so naff - we aren't allowed to be angry like other races of women...when we are, its as if we've declared war and the defensiveness and justification goes into overdrive. Its boring now.

Thankfully though, most people on MN are pretty sensible, much of this thread demonstrates that, I don't get into it with the "deniers" who seem to have a vested interest in landing like a clumsy parachute anytime they get to realise its a black woman talking about racism. They will define racism for you, after all they can define and explain it so much better so, you must be told *sigh...

Best ignored

eminado Apologies if you feel my points about specific language used to describe the Williams sisters derailed things. I consider it part and parcel of the racism they endure - a micro-aggression compared to being called the n-word, death threats and having bananas hurled at you though, sure. I nailed in on 'aggressive' because it was the one that seems so benign comparatively but clearly has such racist undertones. Silverback etc are more overtly racist.

But yeah in terms of discussing racism maybe it's best I stick to the more obvious discrimination.

Cassie I dont think you derailed the thread!! I agree with you about colour coded language! I agree completely.

I just cant get past people's refusal to believe it, or rather to understand that for some of us posting this is from practical experience not just an academic argument.

Serena's outburst - unsportsmanly, aggressive, bullying, threatening - some of many many many words about this 2009 outburst, all used today to roundly condemn her.

Comparison of a (beautiful) successful female sportswoman to a male gorilla - "vile".
Guess that is all folk have to say on that!

I

I still cannot believe people literally use words like gorilla to describe her :( She's fucking majestic yet that's all people can say?! She's going to go down in history as one of the greatest - if not the greatest - tennis player in history. Her haters can put that in their pipes and smoke it

Her outburst - yes she threatened someone and that's incredibly wrong. Where's the hate for the people who told her dad they wanted to lynch him?! That's far, far worse imo.

Racism is well and truly alive in 2015, it just looks a bit different :(

I've mentioned this on other threads but I was quite naïve about racism when I was younger. Grew up in a v diverse part of London, v mixed friendship group, all ambitious, motivated girls. As I've got older and moved out of that bubble I've realised how real racism is. And sexism and homophobia and I've recently discovered disablism. And it is sad and horrible and loads of it goes in countries that consider themselves developed and 'civilised'. I do think humankind is doomed to fail sometimes.

"I love mankind, he said, "but I find to my amazement that the more I love mankind as a whole, the less I love man in particular." Bleurgh. I think it's way past my bedtime.

Both those sisters have had to put up with an unbelievable of crap. I wish I could say it beggars belief, but sadly , it doesn't. They are incredibly talented and dedicated and that should garner respect, but in many cases it has just garnered them abuse.

Andy Murray gets something similar from the UK press, albeit in smaller doses. The similarity is I think because neither the Williams sisters nor Andy Murray "know their place". That is, they don't try desperately to conform to the standards set by an entrenched hierarchy.

So they don't cowtow to oppression. That is something, that, in my opinion, makes them even more worthy of respect than their sporting achievements. They haven't changed themselves.

I think that may also be part of the reason they have been so successful- they haven't wasted time on bending over backwards to be accepted by an establishment that tries to force them to justify their very existence.

Incidentally, why should any sportsperson be cheery? If that's their personality, then fine. But if it isn't, it isn't.

Serena and Venus reportedly grew up playing on public courts knowing to drop to the ground when they heard gunshots. It takes a lot of determination to persevere in those conditions. It is scary for people in the establishment to think that sheer talent, drive and determination can overcome disadvantage. It shows that all the privileges and advantages people in the establishment try so hard to keep for their children, and their children only, can crumble in the face of talent, discipline and single mindedness.

Andy Murray has latterly been quite open about the fact that a lot of his motivation to do well in tennis was to honour the memory of his schoolmates who died during the Dunblane shootings. If that's where he is coming from emotionally, why on earth would he be the on-court reincarnation of Henri LeConte? And none the worse for it.

And I think people are being racist when they comment on her build, her swearing, her stature - and when they put about rumours they're male

With regard to the above comment, whereas a undercurrent of subtle (sometimes less subtle) sexism or racism is present in some of the comments about the sisters, I think people over react when they say all comments about them are effectively off limits unless completely positive - this is the political correctness that people hate so much and sexist/racists hide behind! Not that I care too much, but would I really be sexist/racist to express a dislike for Serena's swearing outburst?

I suppose I get frustrated by the fact that the combination of the actual racism out there and the understandable sensitivity to this meaning that all discussion of the Williams' sisters that goes beyond 'aren't they so very good' risks falling foul of some people's sexist/racist sensibilities.

And the accusations of aggressiveness long predate the line-judge threat which was in 2009. Yes, she behaved appallingly, but that incident is being retrospectively used to justify heavily gendered and raced characterisations of her as angry and animalistic, which date from the start of her career

For what it's worth I liked her a lot before that incident. I still think she's a magnificent athlete, with lots of traits to be admired, but I don't 'like' someone who behaves like that to someone else amd do think they deserve to have it commented on.

But I agree with you on the coded language thing for the most part too.

You're also right that I didn't say much to condemn the sexism and racism. It is totally appalling. Maybe I didn't because I thought it just went without saying, but that was wrong.

I did pick up on the aggression point because it had been highlighted already, then continued talking about it because someone implied I was racist because I said it. And I didn't want to let that drop.

YY to everything RonSwanson said.

Of course there's coded language etc. but, I personally feel I can criticise someone for being what in my opinion seems aggressive without being racist. I said before that I think Sharapova's 'gamesmanship' is too much- does that mean I have an anti Russian agenda or do I now not like white people or do I just think she happens to be a cheat?

I think Serena Williams is an amazing athlete, amazing body, determined- a real winner. Comparing her to a gorilla is repulsive, racist and wrong. I also think she's a bit aggressive so I personally don't warm to her (although I have more so recently). I think Jankovic is whiney and I've never thought anything much of Venus- always liked her.

If I was Serena and I faced the racist shit storm that she has endured I think i would be a little more than aggressive.

If I described Serena Williams was a strong, muscluar, fierce, focussed, athlete with a tendency to swear, would I be being sexist?

To some on here it seems I would, but.... I would argue that anyone who calls that sexist is ironically being sexist themselves!, as there's no reason why a women shouldn't have all those attributes, and to say otherwise is to imply that 'real' women are gentle, meek, slight and submissive! What the accuser is actually saying implicitly is "yes, I know she's all those things really, but you're not allowed to say that, as it would mean you're described her in male terms, when she's actually a female and has female attributes to, and that's very offensive!"

Oh I think there is definite racism in the way the sisters are treated, just look at the language the media use when talking about them. The article posted above is especially good.

As an aside, I've noticed that Martina Hingis is playing in the doubles this year and has been invited to play in the "legends doubles" in the past. Hingis retired a few years ago (or should that be 'retired'?) when she tested positive for cocaine. Yet that's all forgotten now. Had it happened to either of the Williams sisters I'm pretty sure it would've resulted in a massive media storm that ensured they never played again, and I doubt the All England Club would be inviting them to anything.

If I described Serena Williams was a strong, muscluar, fierce, focussed, athlete with a tendency to swear, would I be being sexist?

No... It would be sexist if you insinuated she was a man because of those traits, or if you said something negative about her not being ladylike etc. Stating that she is strong, muscular and so on is just stating a fact.

Just heard a BBC commentator describe Serena as primeval. Am sure there are a million people waiting to make excuses for him but WTF. Absolutely disgraceful.

He didn't describe Serena as primeval, let's not distort things here.....she is in an incredibly intense match, and let out a howl/scream on winning a point that he described as primeval. Not her.

QED.

I'm sure he'd have used the same phrase to describe Sharapova

There's none so blind as those that will not see.

Yeah, I was just about to say he wouldn't say anything like that about a white player.