AIBU to say that the racism against the Williams sisters never goes away

[derxa]

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11174583/Calling-Serena-Williams-scary-isnt-just-sexist-its-racist-too.html

Just that. I think they're fantastic sportswomen and every commentary on every game seems to make out that they are the bogey man/woman fighting against the delicate flower on the other side of the net.

I dont read it like that - Andy Murray gets the same level of criticism leveled at him - is that because hes Scottish or is it because he doesnt tend to smile much? And it still doesnt warrant saying a poster should be shot!

You will have to explain to me then cassie where stare has been racist.

I see this has descended into a bunfight. Read ShipShapeAhoy's recommended article and all will be made clear. I don't condone threatening language from anyone to anyone whether it is Serena Williams or posters on here. However in the article Serena explains a time when she had to ask for a member of the crowd to be removed for saying things which were so disgusting that I can't even type them.

You will have to explain to me then cassie where stare has been racist.

I didn't say she had been racist - I don't know her well enough to make that statement. But her expectations that the Williams sisters should be friendly and non-threatening do veer very close to racist territory. It plays in to the racist stereotypes of angry black women which limits black women's ability to express the same range of emotions as white women without being negatively labelled for it.

"Andy is a phenomenal player who makes for great viewing....better than that American S.i.l.v.er. B.a..c..k Williams. Here's hoping Heather crushes that bloke in a wig playing Women's tennis. Anyways well done to Murray."

Here's a post from the dreaded DM website comments section posted in the last half hour.

CrystalCove

I suppose we'll just have to disagree then.

YANBU. Sadly, the Williams sisters have been subjected to incessant racism since they were children. I first heard of them when they were about 10 and 11 years old, and even then there were thinly veiled racist comments directed against them. Their father also had quite a bit of vitriol directed against him, though as one commentator put it, when it comes to obnoxious tennis parents Mr. Williams doesn't even make the top 100.

"But her expectations that the Williams sisters should be friendly and non-threatening do veer very close to racist territory"

But did she say that? I get the point your making, it's similar to the line of "I don't mind gays, I just don't want it shoved in my face" I.e. I'll tolerate that minority but they better act right and appreciate me allowing them to do X.

But if this is the post you're calling the posted up on
" yes v aggressive but that's not a bad thing in sport.they are just not v pleasant personalities.some of the players are v engaging and smiley, friendly.the sisters are not like that."

Then I don't think that it falls into the category described. The poster never said they should act a certain way or not be allowed to act the way they do.
She's described them as unpleasant and nothing more, based on their court actions.
She hasn't said that they should be no threatening or smile to appease her or the crowd, she's just stated that they don't do it at present and she finds them unpleasant.

Similar criticism plagues sports men and women of all ethnicities. Ronaldo, a white male, who's generally accepted to be the second best player in the world is loathed by many for perceived arrogance and a dismissive attitude to team mates.
Wayne Rooney for his thuggish image.
Their defenders will say the same things that I'd defend the Williams sisters with. They're not paid to be nice or he role models, they're paid to win. But that doesn't mean people can't dislike those facets of their personality and hope others who they do like win out.

Don't care wrt some previous posters comments about losing respect for them because they swore or danced or whatever

The 'whatever' being physically threatening someone.

I'm sure they do have a lot of racism and sexism to contend with, but if someone does something like this then I think it's ok to label them as aggressive without it necessarily being racist.

Exactly binky
Even telling the line judge to "fuck off" wouldn't have bothered me.
Threatening violence? Not okay.
That isn't good 'sportsmanship'

Goshthatsspicy
Threatening violence certainly isn't good sportsmanship. I'm not condoning her behaviour. However I don't see why she has to be a role model for women or black people in sport. Luis Suarez bites people and he still gets advertising contracts. He is just a sportsman who behaves badly and she is a sportswoman who can behave badly.

Cassie:"But her expectations that the Williams sisters should be friendly and non-threatening do veer very close to racist territory"

MQv2: But did she say that? I get the point your making, it's similar to the line of "I don't mind gays, I just don't want it shoved in my face" I.e. I'll tolerate that minority but they better act right and appreciate me allowing them to do X.

But if this is the post you're calling the posted up on
Stares: " yes v aggressive but that's not a bad thing in sport.they are just not v pleasant personalities.some of the players are v engaging and smiley, friendly.the sisters are not like that."

MQv2: Then I don't think that it falls into the category described. The poster never said they should act a certain way

Stares clearly wants her to be engaging and smiley. Williams is under no obligation to be and is being judged negatively because of it.

Lots of people may independently say "Oh I just don't like her she isn't friendly" but statistically when compared to other players a black woman like Williams will be considered more negatively for not "being friendly". Her job isn't to be friendly, as derxa says, it's to play tennis and win. She doesn't have to have a smile on her face to do that.

Ah, how nice of you Binkybix Playing the 'I'm not racist..but' card.

You have absolutely no idea of the sort of hell some women go through to make it in your romanticised idea of society.

I'm not a big fan of Serena (although I'm warming to her more recently) because I've always thought she seemed standoffish and a bit rude. Tennis is a spectator sport and I prefer to watch players I warm to.

I don't think it plays into any racial stereotypes. What stare said didn't seem racist to me.

Goshthatsspicy
That isn't good sportsmanship

Oh really! Is it not??? Do you mean then it is otherwise acceptable when people openly throw bananas at them or chant at them to get off the court?

derxa Can you please elaborate on this point:
He is just a sportsman who behaves badly and she is a sportswoman who can behave badly

I read this about a month ago.

www.vox.com/2015/3/11/8189679/serena-williams-indian-wells-racism

I would go as far as to say name me a black woman who hasn't been called a man or "drag queen " or something along that line. I feel sorry for Michelle Obama.

I don't know how to make the link work using my phone

So Serena could be an angel 99 times out of 100. She could run soup kitchens in her spare time and rescue kittens. She has one bad day and loses her rag (not unheard of in tennis) and that's zoned in as a reason to justify why she AND her sister have brought racism and sexism upon themselves. They are never allowed the benefit of the doubt although shouting at linesmen is a no no and wrong and thus she was rightly sanctioned for it.

On the other hand Kim Sears who's not even a player just a WAG scream insults at
Tomos Berdych calling him a 'Czech flash fucking fuck' which is also offensive and its explained away that she's just 'supporting her partner' and is 'passionate' 'oh she's so pretty and has lovely hair'...

It's literally pointless explaining racism or sexism to some people because they'll tie themselves in knots in whatabouterry or being obtuse.

Go on any Guardian article about sexism for example and the article will be about a woman being discriminated at work for being pregnant etc and the first 20+ comments will be along the lines of 'well she should'nt have done this or that', 'it's not sexism she just wasn't good at her job', 'see this is why women are trouble for the poor ickle employers and shouldn't be in the workplace'. They'll find one thing the woman did 'wrong' in the article then zero in on that in order to make that the issue and minimise the 'ism'. They'll say things like 'well what about men being discriminated in the workplace I'm sick of hearing about sexism'....It's pointless trying to engage with these people because they love the status quo and are threatened by any perceived change to their position and will fight and argue with you to justify it even though it would benefit them and everyone else when these 'isms' are consigned to history.

So yes both Serena and Venus deserve to treated badly because one time in the last 2 decades one of them was very rude to a linesman.

Someone else mentioned the treatment of Lewis Hamilton. Any time an article appears about him, half the comments focus on people not liking him because of his status as a tax exile living in Monaco. Nobody mentions Jenson Button and probably 90% of F1 people also live there. Different standards.

I don't know if it's racism, sexism or a bit of both, but someone up thread mentioned how the crowd seems to want their opponents to win. Which could be an example of supporting the underdog but it's just not the same for the men. The crowd love Federer and Nadal, and even Djokovic and they are just as successful as Venus and Serena.

I also don't believe that the tennis circuit is as naice, polite and friendly as is made out. They can't all be that nice and like each other as much as they profess to.

They are the targets for a lot of racism and sexism, both direct and more subtle. You can't get away from that. Its an indictment of our society, sadly.

My short-arse, totally threatened, gargoyle of a little man EX-stepdad used to say really loudly whenever they were on TV 'urgh, but they look like blokes'. Twat. My mum still cites that idiocy as one of the reasons she left him .

They are fucking awesome, in my opinion. I hold them up to my DD as great role models - determined, disciplined, talented and with strong bodies that DO something and aren't just there to be objectified.

My point is that if Serena does things which are against the rules during a tennis match it does not negate the fact that she has been subject to disgusting racism throughout her career. The two things are completely separate.

Ah, how nice of you Binkybix Playing the 'I'm not racist..but' card

You have absolutely no idea of the sort of hell some women go through to make it in your romanticised idea of society

Can you point out where I was racist please? Or even said 'I'm not racist but...'

I said I agree that people ARE racist towards them. I equally said that threatening someone with physical violence is aggressive.

Do you disagree that threatening someone with violence is aggressive?

You have no idea about me or my background. I don't have it the hardest but I certainly don't have it the easiest.

My point is that if Serena does things which are against the rules during a tennis match it does not negate the fact that she has been subject to disgusting racism throughout her career. The two things are completely separate

I agree with this.

well said Capricorn!

I would extend your post to say that this thread has gone the same way. We started off discussing how they are the victims of racism and sexism.
The racism, especially, is irrefutable. I don't see how anyone can think that throwing a banana at a black woman playing tennis is nothing but racism. So yes, she is definitely a victim.

Now we have descended into splitting hairs about whether or not she is smiley enough and whether one posters comment on this is racist or not.

In the face of IRREFUTABLE evidence that there have been many other racist incidences in various arenas over a long period of time. Stare's comments (racist or not depending what you think) are the least of Serena's racist worries/experiences.

No one I can see on the thread so far condones her aggressive and threatening outburst to the linesman. However, her aggression does not justify the racism she has experienced all her career. Her being bad does not minimise other people's horrendous attitudes and behaviour.

Of course its not acceptable that they have suffered racism, but to see it in posts from people who may just not like the Williams sisters, and not because of the colour of their skin is wrong to.