To say something about an email addressed "Dear Ladies"?

[SilverBirchWithout]

I've just received an internal email (from someone I have not met) addressed to myself and a colleague. It opens with "Dear Ladies", I personally find the general term "Ladies", unless used in a light-hearted way, quite sexist.

I'm now being really judgy about the person who sent it, I assume they are male, but they have an unusual first name, so it's not clear.

1. Would you be as irritated as I am?
2. Does it make any difference if they are another woman or a man?
3. Would you say anything? If so what?
4. Should I bother to actually respond to their request for info, as it is readily available on the organisation's intranet?

Or am I just hot and grumpy?

I work for enlightened organisation, which amongst other activities, campaigns on improving women's rights in the UK and overseas.

It would bother me but tbh, I'd not say anything because if it's someone senior to me, I'd not want to rock the boat so to speak and face some of the attitudes on here, which is a problem in itself I suppose and adds to women not being heard and dismissed, which then adds to the bigger issues I suppose.

Something I find weird, and I'm not just meaning posters here, it happens a lot on MN, is when a poster wants to discuss something that bothers them, they are told to get a grip, to post elsewhere, or told and given examples of more worthy things others think they should worry about. Women are often stereotyped as being brilliant at multitasking, but apparently they can't worry or think about more than one thing at once sometimes.

I send emails to "Ladies" and I send them to "Gentlemen" no one has ever complained, if they did I'd possibly write "Ladies and Jane" and see how that went down.....

Apologies, have not read the entire thread.

So how do you address an email that is aimed at just a group of women?

I would say "Dear all" as I don't consider whether or not they're women to be relevant. (Though in line with what some PP have said, I'd only do that for 3+ people. If it's 2 people "Dear Janet and Jane" will do fine.)

I don't consider "Ladies" to be sexist so much as classist. It bothers me when it's used but I pick my battles and that might be one I let slide. My [female] boss referred to a "girl" visiting my workplace the other day and I was completely non-plussed as I couldn't think who she meant. Took a while for the cogs to grind and realise that she was referring to the very well-qualified and capable 50 something woman who had called in. Not that I consider "girl" to be an insult per se, but I do prefer to use an age-appropriate term. If you watch Made In Dagenham the film makes it abundantly clear how "girl" was used to belittle women and grant them the status of children. So unless someone actually is a Lady, with a title, I call them a woman or a girl, depending on their age.

Thinking on it a bit more, the reason I wouldn't say anything would be because if it was a genuine mistake, and they hadn't thought it the wrong word to use then I'd feel bad at making them feel bad, they'd change how they address the email though in future.
But if the sender is the type who'd be annoyed that you're bothered then they'd be the type I'd not want to piss off in the workplace.

If I didn't know them, I wouldn't know which they were so I'd not say anything. I'd be annoyed with myself for doing so though because I know if nobody speaks then nothing gets changed.

Good morning

Good afternoon

Dear xxxxxx

Or even, Hello.

I'd possibly write "Ladies and Jane" and see how that went down

Then I'd point out it's actually Dr Jane. If people are going to use titles, I like them use the right ones

the op asked for opinions so 'don't care' or 'get over it' are perfectly valid responses.

"Get over it" isn't an opinion, it's a rather rude instruction.

For me it really depends how a word is said. I don;t consider the word 'girl' an insult or 'lady'. Sometimes my daughter calls me 'woman' in a way that sounds like an insult! So I pull her up on it, but I would not consider the word woman an insult.

SilverBirchWithout do you know what you are going to do yet?

In don't mind being called a laydee...but I HATE the salution "Dear" - unless is is from someone dear to me. So that rules anyone at work out.

And as a slight side step- I've found that if you ever find yourself with a man using 'girl' or 'girlies' etc to be patronising or belittling, then responding with something along the line of 'oooh aren't you a clever big boy to know all that to tell us girls!' and use of a very 'talking to a toddler' tone and calling them a big boy or a little boy can work wonders - and they can't say much about it as they just called you a girl... If they do, you just go all innocent and say that you thought that that's what they wanted to be called, and you were taking a lead from them

I am shocked that the term ladies is offensive to a women.

I have 2 daughters - I often refer to them as the girls if talking to someone about them or call up the stairs," tea time girls". My sister has 2 boys and refers to them as "the boys".

Am I being sexist. Should a refer to them as children to avoid being offensive/sexist???

I go out with my friends on a "girls night out". We recently attended a charity "Ladies Night" - for women, selling and auctioning womens clothing, makeup and beauty products.

In answer to your post

1: Not at all
2: No
3:No
4:Send a link to the info perhaps

Perhaps you are a little grumpy about this. Really don't understand why it bothers you so much.

Is it the word lady/ladies? you dont like - why?

Is it just the word or its meaning?

I hate the word moist but would never get worked up about anyone using it - but then I am not being addressed as moist (i hope )

Ladies is the feminine, Gentlemen is the masculine and Gentlefolk (which can be shortened to Gentles) is the neutral. Ladies is the correct terminology if he is addressing a female audience in a formal manner and denoting their high social standing.

However a lot of people associate lady/ladies in a negative manner due its common use in conversation unlike the other two terms.

Italian yes I have already replied.

Very briefly with "Here is the link you need". No salutation at the beginning or comment.

I might make a wry comment to his boss, next time I see her, so if he has other organisational style issues she can bring it up with him. For the time being I will not go out of my way to help him with other questions, until I am sure of what he is really like.

Ladies night sounds horrendous to me! What does a Gentleman's fundraising evening consist of...Dominoes, Beer and a Pole-Dancer maybe?

I have 2 daughters - I often refer to them as the girls if talking to someone about them or call up the stairs," tea time girls". My sister has 2 boys and refers to them as "the boys". Am I being sexist. Should a refer to them as children to avoid being offensive/sexist???

Personally, I dislike people using "girls" for grown women because it's patronising, and shows their low opinion of women. You'll notice people that address women as "girls" usually don't call men "boys".

But if someone is describing female children then girls is fine, in my opinion.

Really don't understand why it bothers you so much

People keep saying this. Many posters have explained why it bothers them. Read the thread.

Perhaps these posters really mean that they don't accept these explanations. Fine, but understand that if you persist in using Ladies, especially in a workplace setting, you are very likely annoying or offending someone. It's easy to avoid.

1. Would you be as irritated as I am

No.

Like a PP, "ladies" would make a pleasant change from "girl" or "young lady". Being called either of those in your mid thirties in a professional environment is disrespectful and infantilising.

2. Does it make any difference if they are another woman or a man?

It could do. But not in the situation described.

3. Would you say anything? If so what?

Not in the situation described.

4. Should I bother to actually respond to their request for info, as it is readily available on the organisation's intranet?

You could be PA and send them a link saying, "here it is, didn't you see it on the front page of the intranet?"

Anyone who has attempted to learn a foreign language will have had to get to grips with formal and informal terms of address in different contexts. The posts on this thread are testament to how nigh on impossible it would be for a foreigner to get even the flimsiest grasp on the correct forms of address to use in English without giving offence. I wonder if anyone is up to the challenge of writing such an idiot's guide to terms of address? Obviously I'm counting myself out as i see nothing wrong with ladies or Dear... for that matter.

Fine, but understand that if you persist in using Ladies, especially in a workplace setting, you are very likely annoying or offending someone.

I disagree. I would say a large majority of the people on this thread have said it wouldn't bother them. It's not "very likely" that anyone receiving such an email would take offence.

i have to use this, "there's a lady waiting for you". "the 4pm gentleman has arrived early".

You can't say 'that woman'' in earshot of people.

I know what you're saying though, I would write Dear Sarah and Louise (for example) and I definitely wouldn't type dear gentlemen! it'd be ''dear john and mike" (eg)

1. Yes, definitely
2. Yes although perhaps it shouldn't. If it were a man I would find it more patronising than if it were another woman sorry I mean lady
3. Yes. I would reply to the sender only and say: Thanks for your email. Can I point out that referring to female colleagues as 'ladies' is inappropriate, particularly as our organisation prides itself on being progressive and promoting gender equality. Can I ask you to address female colleagues in future by their names or in a more appropriate way (such as 'Dear all, Dear both). Thanks
4. I would point this out in the email you send back.

I was once the boss of a man who continually referred to me and other female staff as ladies despite several requests not to from me and some of the women I was managing. A visit to HR sorted out the problem.

It has bothered me a lot more to be called a lady in a shop than it would ever bother me to be called a lady at work (only because the shop worker is rightfully observing my mature years, argh).

The thing is, gents isn't necessarily an equivalent, as IME the kind of people who send emails through to "ladies" asking them to do 2 minutes work they couldn't be arsed to do themselves, wouldn't be sending the same email to a pair of "gents" as they would value their time more and be more conscious of what a silly request it was when all he needed to do was use Google.

This happens on a subconscious level, but a person's use of the word "ladies" in this context does imply they could be the type of person who puts "ladies" into the category of "people there to help me" in a way they don't to men so much.

wiggly that point had occurred to me as I read the responses and thought more about why it irritated me. I certainly think the style of male to male emails is often different.

I actually think a man (or woman) might more likely address subordinates as Gents in a similar manner and either term can be used to sound patronising.