To say something about an email addressed "Dear Ladies"?

[SilverBirchWithout]

I've just received an internal email (from someone I have not met) addressed to myself and a colleague. It opens with "Dear Ladies", I personally find the general term "Ladies", unless used in a light-hearted way, quite sexist.

I'm now being really judgy about the person who sent it, I assume they are male, but they have an unusual first name, so it's not clear.

1. Would you be as irritated as I am?
2. Does it make any difference if they are another woman or a man?
3. Would you say anything? If so what?
4. Should I bother to actually respond to their request for info, as it is readily available on the organisation's intranet?

Or am I just hot and grumpy?

I work for enlightened organisation, which amongst other activities, campaigns on improving women's rights in the UK and overseas.

It's unprofessional/overly familiar in a work setting.

I find myself doing just this when I write multiple (lady) recipient personal emails because I think "Dear All" sounds too formal.

This is a form of address that would not be considered usual or standard in my line of work at all. The culture is everyone on first name terms, even if you've never met them. So an email would start Dear Ben / Sue / Bob, or Dear Ben and Sue, if there's more then Dear Colleagues, Dear Team, Hi everyone, whatever depending on the context.

If I got an email addressed to me and another female colleague saying "Dear Ladies" it would stick out like a sore thumb.

I personally don't like the term either. As a poster upthread said, it's not neutral, there is a whole bunch of stuff around being a "lady", not being "ladylike" and all sorts. I would find it patronising and a bit odd.

Anyway the main thing that jumped out at me is that this man has asked TWO women to perform the same very trivial bit of work for him that he could perfectly well do himself. And even if he doesn't realise it's on the intranet, why ask 2 people (both LADIES, note) to do it for him? Why not ask one and save on two people reading the email, thinking about it, and avoid the likelihood of 2 people ending up doing the same thing for him and thus wasting the time of one of them? So given this, I would be less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt to his attitude to "ladies".

OP anyway in response to your original questions:

1. yes
2. yes
3. no
4. depends who he is and how far up the food chain. I would definitely be checking with the other "lady" involved to check we didn't both go back to him. I'd probably bitch about him to some of my colleagues who would then think (note to self NEVER address whirlpool as a lady ).

The question is, would the person writing use an equivalent form if they were writing to just men?

Generally not. You'd say 'all' or another neutral collective noun, or use names. Unless there's a reason that gender is relevant, why use that in your address?

I wouldn't raise it, probably, but it would rankle because it's stupid and reductive. I'd think less of the sender because they've shown that they're gits, and I might be less inclined to go out of my way for them.

'Ladies' to me also has class overtones. I can just hear my snob of a grandmother saying to her mother 'well, so and so isn't a lady.'

Also, teachers in my privileged girls' school. It was a way of reminding us to be ladylike.

So what does this man write if he isn't surprised to note that both the recipients to an email are female? How does he handle a mixed group I wonder? Dear Lady and Gentleman???

Jassy YY "young ladies" it's all very loaded.

Just thinking, for me personally, if it's a group of mates I don't mind, or a woman at work who I knew very well about a drink or something.

Like "girls night" it's not my favourite but I'm not going to cringe in the same way as if a male colleague called me a girl IYSWIM.

Who and how and context are everything here. It's an inappropriate way of addressing 2 women you've never met, in a professional work setting, about a work matter.

Well if you are so bothered about it, you should find out whether the sender is male or female. (If female, then as far as I can see there's no problem). I would suggest that whoever it was, they were just trying to be polite (maybe they are a bit 'old school') and personally I think it would be a bit churlish to 'tell them off' in a in an email. If you happen to meet them one day, you could say something I suppose, but I do think you risk offending them if they, like many of us, see nothing wrong with the term 'Ladies'.

So what does this man write if he isn't surprised to note that both the recipients to an email are female? How does he handle a mixed group I wonder? Dear Lady and Gentleman???

I write "Dear All" in all instances of multiple recipients at work . I wouldn't consider Ladies/Gentlemen an option because I think it makes the sender sound uneducated.

It makes no difference if the sender is male or female. Women often use terribly sexist language as well.

Oh god, 'dear ladies' is offensive? I send and receive emails with this on. Not offensive and not sexist. Merely descriptive.

I just did a review of my last two weeks of emails. "All" seems to be the default for anything more than two people, with different salutations. There was one "Good morning, y'all." (I am in the Southern US.)

I admire your dedication to the thread seneca

I would check mine but it's upstairs

I've seen as many e-mails beginning "gents" as I have "ladies". Don't have a problem with it. The "dear" part is usually not included though.
Only time "ladies" was a problem was when one of us wasn't female - female name in English but not in continental European - oops!

I think "dear collegues" is awful - so impersonal. "Dear valued customer" as a PP suggested is worse.

Oh god, 'dear ladies' is offensive? I send and receive emails with this on. Not offensive and not sexist. Merely descriptive.

In YOUR opinion. Please don't speak for us all, we are entitled to our own opinions. And I don't feel "lady" describes me at all, I'm a woman. I am not of high social standing or particularly dignified.

And FWIW, in my organisation, if someone is writing to just females it's 'Dear Ladies', writing to just chaps it's 'Dear Gentlemen', if it's both it's 'Dear Ladies and Gentlemen'. (Sometimes it's without the Dear, depends on who is writing). We are all highly paid professionals, and in 20 years I have never heard anybody complain about this form of address.

It's incredibly out-dated and patronising.

I hate 'ladies'. You would never see an e-mail addressed to 'Dear Gentlemen'.

to be honest, I find "addressed to myself and a colleague" far more irritating than "dear ladies".

I work for an Arabic, Islamic oil company in the Middle East and we would definitely get picked up for that. Dear colleagues, a simple "good morning" or names only. let the mail put that in their pipe and smoke it.

1. Would you be as irritated as I am?

No. I am a feminist but I also use the term ladies for friends. If this is a person you do not know then I think it is too informal and potentially patronising

1. Does it make any difference if they are another woman or a man?

Maybe, as a 'lady' I do feel a bit more able to use the term than a man might!

1. Would you say anything? If so what?

No, but if I felt as you do I would say, 'I don't like work emails addressed to me as 'ladies', please could you use my first name/full name whatever name you like

1. Should I bother to actually respond to their request for info, as it is readily available on the organisation's intranet?

Of course, or direct them with a link to the website

It should be pointed out that the OP didn't use the words offended or offensive, that I can see. Irritated or annoyed is not the same as offended.

My colleague and I sometimes get referred to as "the girls" at work.

I am 35 and colleague is 40 so neither of us really mind

Seriously though it's really patronising and I do pull people up on it!!

Winter she called it sexist.....most people are offended by sexist behavior. I don't think its a huge leap to assume she is offended.

I use "Dear Fred et al" where Fred is the main target and the others are cc'd. It has the advantage of allowing people to entertain themselves with variations on the "I know who Fred is, but who's Al?" joke, which never gets old....apparently.

Ladies doesn't bother me at all. I use it myself and also "girls" even though me and my fiends as mostly 40 plus.

I can identify something as sexist without being offended by it. It IS a big leap. It's not the same thing at all.

I'd be irritated OP.

The fact you are a woman is irrelevant to your job or it would be if we didn't live in a patriarchy, not that you'd know it from some of the responses on this thread

1. no
2. no
3. no
4. no

I hate people addressing grown women as "girls", but ladies doesn't bother me. I much prefer it to receiving emails or letters addressed "Dear Sirs". I always want to reply to those with "Dear Madams".