To say something about an email addressed "Dear Ladies"?

[SilverBirchWithout]

I've just received an internal email (from someone I have not met) addressed to myself and a colleague. It opens with "Dear Ladies", I personally find the general term "Ladies", unless used in a light-hearted way, quite sexist.

I'm now being really judgy about the person who sent it, I assume they are male, but they have an unusual first name, so it's not clear.

1. Would you be as irritated as I am?
2. Does it make any difference if they are another woman or a man?
3. Would you say anything? If so what?
4. Should I bother to actually respond to their request for info, as it is readily available on the organisation's intranet?

Or am I just hot and grumpy?

I work for enlightened organisation, which amongst other activities, campaigns on improving women's rights in the UK and overseas.

Ladies is polite.
4 "no"s

I just did a check on my email inbox at work, and I have a few emails (from other women) saying "Hi ladies" when emailing me and another woman or women. I work in a professional services organisation with highly educated women and it would never have occurred to me to take offence. HOWEVER in the context of a lazy male manager asking two "ladies" to do something for him that he could do himself easily, I might. But it would be the laziness and the not bothering to look on the intranet, not the use of the word ladies.

Just out of interest, those of you who go out on nights out with female friends, what do you call those nights out? Presumably not ladies nights or girls' nights? "nights out with female friends" is a bit of a mouthful.

Ladies is polite.

Is it? I find it pretty rude unless men are addressed in an equivalent gender-specific way.

And, as I've said, the class overtones are pretty nasty.

Just out of interest, those of you who go out on nights out with female friends, what do you call those nights out? Presumably not ladies nights or girls' nights? "nights out with female friends" is a bit of a mouthful.

I think (think!) I just refer to them as nights out, or nights out with friends.

I can't see what would be wrong with 'Dear All'! I just think it's unnecessary and irrelevant to start like that.

Yes - like Jassy - night out! I do have a colleague who says 'ladies' in that context but no other, and that's fine although I probably wouldn't.

1. Would you be as irritated as I am?

No but it's a bit naff

1. Does it make any difference if they are another woman or a man?

No

1. Would you say anything? If so what?

I'm not sure. It would depend. (Sorry wishy washy answer)

1. Should I bother to actually respond to their request for info, as it is readily available on the organisation's intranet?

Yes but you could just link them to the information

I'm another that writes Dear All a lot. I also write Dear Team or Dear SoutWest Trains or Dear Admissions (or whatever) if I haven't got a name.

I think (4) is probably the most irritating bit of this though!

"In my mind he was addressing us as "ladies" because he was a man, in a higher grade (another department) asking us to do something that he was perfectly capable of doing himself."

This is the crux of it IMO.

For those of you who think it isn't important - this kind of stuff is exactly how the pay gap happens.

The man in question is in a senior grade, and he is asking the OP to do something he can't be arsed to do himself, as he sees the OP and her colleague as "ladies" which in his mind equates to "subservient people who are there to help me when I can't be arsed to take 2 minutes to do a job myself"

He is relating to them as "ladies" with all his preconceptions about what it means to be a "lady" rather than as his colleagues.

I don't know if the OP's boss is like this, but having spent many years working in a male-dominated environment, I know plenty of men in that role who wouldn't have ben so quick to ask a man in the same junior role to perform that task for them, as they don't have them pigeon-holed as "subservient helper", but as "ambitious young man, like me when I was young".

In these kinds of sexist environments it is the "ambitious young men" who get more promotions, and larger pay rises, without the bosses ever even being consciously aware that they is being sexist.

OP I was you my blood would be boling too! He's probably never really thought about it though.

I wouldn't call him out in a snotty email, but I would certainly take any opportunity to challenge his preconceptions about his use of the word "ladies" and his perceptions about gender when you get a chance.

Ladies wouldn't bother me at all providing everyone on the list is female and not missing out any men.

It wouldn't occur to me to feel aggrieved about it I think it's rather nice. My (female) boss sends Emails to us as Dear Ladies.

I agree OP. My male line manager used to refer to my team of four women (all late 20s/early 30s) as 'the girls'. I found it demeaning and belittling, and if that makes me 'professionally offended' I don't care.

It really boiled my piss and I had to politely request that he stopped doing it. To be fair he was mortified that I found it offensive and he hadn't really thought about it...but that kind of proved the point. Sexism in the workplace is entrenched and insidious and unless we call people out on it it'll carry on. Yes, forms of address are not as important an issue as equal pay. But they are on the same spectrum and are part of the same problem in my opinion.

I would address an email to two women or a woman and a man....probably by using their names?! If I didn't know their names I would say 'hi both' or 'dear all' or something.

It is incorrect to write "dear" anyone in an email. That is letter writing etiquette. In my company we say "Hi" or "Good Morning" or just start the email.

"Ladies" is not polite, it is patronising in this context.

Ladies are fine for making jam at the WI or going for lunch. Ladies is fine for toilets and Downton Abbey. All fine & laudable aspects of life.

But Ladies is not fine in a corporate environment. It implies a sensitivity and delicateness incompatible with success in commerce.

Well it's better than 'dear gentlemen' isn't it? Which is how just about every email starts where I work (law firm in the Middle East).

I suppose 'dear both' or 'dear all' might've been better, but really I think working women have bigger fish to fry before they start complaining about being addressed 'dear ladies' in emails...

And by the way, if we're going down the 'correct etiquette' route, it's 'dear sirs' regardless of the gender of the recipients...

Its so twee and old fashioned and yes I can see why some find it sexist. Its unprofessional but I wouldn't do anything to be honest unless there were issues with the sender being sexist in general. Its one of those terms that is in limbo, dying out slowly but not everyone knows! The sender may not have a clue its offensive.

Why is Gentleman a lovely term for a man but Ladies is patronising and sexist. People need to get a grip. Ladies is a perfect fine way to address a group of... ladies! It's how the words are said not what they say. If he called you women you would be all like "you women?, what do you mean you women? we are ladies!"

Men can't win sometimes. Nothing is nice if they say it.

(I'm a lady, when I feel like it)

I'm in the Get Over It camp...

Dear is standard in my experience, Hi is fine by me but not very professional. tbh in emails, I would rather have no salutation and no sign off at all except in the most formal context/from corporate accounts. The first thing you do is see who sent it, no need to sign off at all.

Ladies is a term of respect which corresponds to 'Gentlemen' perfectly. If the message is addressed to all females I cannot see a problem.

In this context it's rather odd but expedient not to have addressed the email to you both personally but I'm baffled as to how anyone could be offended by the use of the term "Ladies" unless they were inviting you to join the Ladies of the Klu Klux Klan or similar.

Is it simply because one definition of lady is someone who is "polite and refined" and you object to the inference that you are assumed to be? Out of interest, would you refuse to enter a public convenience labelled "Ladies" ?

I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's also untrue to suggest there isn't a male equivalent. I often dip in and out of DH's emails, I see lots of emails addressed Dear Gents; Hi Guys, etc. Ladies and gentlemen are recognised terms and titles.

You are projecting a lot on to the email.
"In my mind he was addressing us as "ladies" because he was a man, in a higher grade (another department) asking us to do something that he was perfectly capable of doing himself."
If that is the case then your problem is their because you don't know if it was a man attitude and their approach to your role and your different understandings of how the two roles relate to each other. But the term of address isn't synonymous with that attitude and it isn't even always indicative of that attitude (as illustrated by the many posters who use the term).

If the email sender had asked for the information but started the email 'Dear All' would you still have had an issue with the request? Or did the opening address influence your attitude to the request? I can see how both had an accumulative effect on your perception of the sender. That perception may be right or it may be wrong but you have leapt to stereotype the sender's attitudes very quickly.

Out of interest, would you refuse to enter a public convenience labelled "Ladies"

Stupid question of the day alert. I don't think that needs dignifying with an answer.

The "get over it camp" can bite me. You don't care, so nobody else is supposed to? Lots of women don't care about equal pay, or maternity rights, or abortion laws, or a million other things. So don't care, your prerogative. But fuck off telling the rest of us to "get over it".

Basic point is this: if there is no reason to point out the gender of the recipients, don't do it. Unless the email concerned the OP's vagina, "ladies" was entirely irrelevant.

I wish I had the time and energy to get het up on some of the stupid shit people get het up about on Mumsnet.

This.

Winter the op asked for opinions so 'don't care' or 'get over it' are perfectly valid responses.

By the way, just because I have posed this question and expressed my feelings it doesn't mean that I think it is the key issue impacting women in the workplace!

Thinking around minor behaviours and what they may or might not mean interests me. I started my working life long enough ago to realise that certain indirect behaviours towards women caused barriers for them that were hard to address without being perceived as humourless harpies.

Thinking about it a bit more, using "Ladies" often also has some ageist overtones too and it might be why I find it, at 57, more irritating than other people. In this context men (and other women) do use it instead of "girls" to indicate their age and status in relation to you.

Earlier on in this thread a couple of people sarcastically asked whether it would be better to have said Dear Women, knowing this sounded weird. Actually the reason it sounds weird is because, as for Ladies, it is. You just don't need to use a group pronoun to address someone in normal communications.

""I'm now being really judgy about the person who sent it, I assume they are male, but they have an unusual first name,""

My first assumption would have been that they wasn't from UK origin.

I have relatives in Africa, my Dad was from SA and I cannot convince them to not use Lady, I'm also called Auntie (nothing more) by my younger relatives friends (as a mark of respect), which I'm obviously fine with, its Cultural.

I have an issue with Spokespeople, Lawyers, Top Officials not using acceptable language, which you see a lot on Television, when there has been a gang rape etc.

My DD managers people from all over the World, in Social Care roles, they have to have this subject, in the ongoing training.

The use of Language is important, but some people aren't educated on what and why they should use or not, some phrases, so you shouldn't initially get insulted, just explain.

Then there is allowing for Cultural difference, which the OP should be well used to, working worldwide. I'm sure if a conversation took place about disability, for example, the Women the OP is helping out of poverty, across the World, would use unacceptable terms.

Out of interest, would you refuse to enter a public convenience labelled "Ladies"

Depends. Is there an equivalent one for men?

""Out of interest, would you refuse to enter a public convenience labelled "Ladies""

Most newer toilets have "Male and Female", which is correct, because children/Teens use them and it makes translation easier for non/poor English speakers.

I'm nearly 50, I welcome the change in language.