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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

501 replies

LashesandLipstick · 30/06/2015 20:03

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

OP posts:
MasterchefIwish · 01/07/2015 09:49

It may not help but can be fascinating nonetheless and even if you don't agree with some of the things they explain (as I didnt for somr finding it hard to put myself in those shoes) it makes you think an consider.

popalot · 01/07/2015 10:04

Very interesting thread.

Firstly, I am only just becoming aware of the NT vs ND thing and it actually confuses me a little bit. Because I thought the current thinking was we are all on a spectrum - where do you draw the line between someone being NT and someone being ND? I thought the current research has us all on a bell graph with aspergers at one end and autism at the other and most people inbetween - so we are all on the same neural line, just some people are more apsergic and others more autistic.

Secondly, I know many people who are probably considered NT who have taken online autism tests (I know, not how it is diagnosed) because they are curious as to why they don't seem to get the social norms in society. I think the whole dinner party thing just highlights that. Some people would ask and not see/care why they are being rude without being ND and others would never dream of asking because it would just be too much trouble for the host and they would understand how unfair that would be for them. Some people would not be worried that the host might be put on the spot and want to accomodate them, despite it being a total nightmare for them in the kitchen, whilst others wouldn't dream of doing that to their host.

Thirdly, logic and honesty do not go hand in hand. It is not logical to tell someone their hair looks shit after a hair cut, though overall it might be honest. If you did this, you would upset them. It is much more logical to find something nice to say about the colour or maybe how it's a nice length, so that you are making them happy.

Finally, you might think you are being honest when in fact you are simply stating your opinion about something, which is not always the truth. That is why people debate all sorts of things. Just because you believe it is true, it does not make it fact. So, because you believe it is always better to be honest, it isn't fact...if you tell the woman her haircut is shit, another person might believe it looks really funky and love it. You are simply going to upset her because you have stated an opinion as fact, which is incorrect and illogical. Also, if you rock up to a dinner party and say you don't like any of the food or have sensory issues, this again might not be fact but opinion. I would say 'how do you know if you haven't tried it yet?' Logic would say you can't say you don't like something before you have even tried it. It is just your opinion that you don't like it, not fact.

Therefore, to say you are honest isn't necessarily logical or factual. Honesty is about opinion more than it is about fact and logic. You are therefore in the same territory as the host who says 'ok, I'll make you something else' through gritted teeth. Neither of you are dealing with facts. And that's because we are all human and we deal with opinions based on our neurology and experience.

WhyTheDrama · 01/07/2015 10:45

OP, to answer your question ????
If someone asked me if I liked their hair I would answer depending on the person - so I guess I wouldn't be being 'honest'. If I didn't like their hair I would most probable say that I did but I preferred it another way or something a bit wishy washy like that. It would depend on the person.

JonSnowKnowsNowt · 01/07/2015 10:58

Not to keep banging on about the dinner party situation, but I think it's a good example of how the OP isn't taking into account other people's views being different from her own.

OP - you've said a number of times that you think it would be 'a bit harsh' for the woman cooking a 13-course dinner party to refuse to cook you a plain chicken breast as well. Presumably that's because you feel that adding an extra item to cook isn't a big deal, and you would cope with it easily. But of course, you have to take into account how she feels about what she can cope with. Her honest answer will be different from someone else's honest answer.

That's what other people are trying to take into account with their roundabout way of asking/answering questions. They're trying to pre-empt making someone feel guilty or awkward or pressured. I agree, sometimes it makes it difficult to know what people want. But just asking or answering 'straight out' also has complicating effects. It's not possible for two people to have a conversation that is pure information transfer with no emotional exchange. We're not computers.

NRomanoff · 01/07/2015 11:07

I am NT, as far as I am aware, and just don't get it either.

CrabbyTheCrabster · 01/07/2015 11:46

Because I thought the current thinking was we are all on a spectrum - where do you draw the line between someone being NT and someone being ND?

No that's not the case. 'The spectrum' refers to the spectrum of autism - Autism Spectrum Disorders - not that autism is part of a spectrum that we are all on.

I thought the current research has us all on a bell graph with aspergers at one end and autism at the other and most people inbetween - so we are all on the same neural line, just some people are more apsergic and others more autistic.

Gawd knows where you got that from, but no! Autism is not at one end of a spectrum, AS at the other and NT people in between!

popalot · 01/07/2015 12:12

crabby I got it from watching this programme a while ago

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0404861/horizon-20132014-10-living-with-autism

have a look at 48.02 where a prof talks about how everyone is on a scale of autistic traits from 0-50, so you are low, average or high and most people score right in the middle. He says people on the Autistic spectrum score above 30. He says 'we are all on the same continuim....it's simply a matter of degree'.

In fact, the whole programme was very interesting. Apart from that, I have no real knowledge on the subject.

BathshebaDarkstone · 01/07/2015 12:18

I often say to my DC (and DH Angry), if you don't want to hear the word no then don't ask the question.

LashesandLipstick · 01/07/2015 12:20

Bathsheba that's my view too! :)

OP posts:
CrabbyTheCrabster · 01/07/2015 12:49

popalot a continuum, yes absolutely, but spectrum refers to the spectrum of autism conditions (which are highly variable in their individual presentation and severity, hence spectrum). They are not the same thing.

Asperger's is an autism spectrum condition - it is a presentation/subsection of autism (and in fact is being phased out as a diagnosis in favour of high functioning autism or just ASD). It's not at the opposite end of the spectrum to autism, with NT people in the middle.

CrabbyTheCrabster · 01/07/2015 12:50

Not trying to be snippy here, btw, but it annoys me when people say 'oh we're all on the spectrum'. No, we're not all autistic!

Wink
DoJo · 01/07/2015 12:55

I often say to my DC (and DH angry), if you don't want to hear the word no then don't ask the question.

There's a big difference between being honest with those close to you and doing it in wider society. I will tell my husband that he is annoying me, because he knows that I love him, but I wouldn't do that to an acquaintance or work colleague because the chances are that would create an atmosphere. It's not as simple as being equally honest with everyone you encounter, you have to adjust the way you talk to people depending on your relationship with them as well.

milkmilklemonade12 · 01/07/2015 13:01

Being honest is a very difficult thing to do, and it certainly doesn't win you friends. So you need to be prepared for some people to ask your opinion, or for a favour; you to politely (and honesty and being rude needn't go hand in hand!) turn them down or give them your opinion, for them not to like it and shun you for a while or longer depending on the nature of it all.

In my mind; I am sure people would far rather they know they know I'm going to be honest if asked a question.

I think it makes for truer friendships, and I go above and beyond for my friends.

Tmrgl · 01/07/2015 13:13

If that someone who is annoying me isn't doing it on purpose then surely they would appreciate my feed back that they are accidental annoying me?

LashesandLipstick · 01/07/2015 13:20

Tmrgl I would, not sure about others after these responses

OP posts:
DoJo · 01/07/2015 13:41

If that someone who is annoying me isn't doing it on purpose then surely they would appreciate my feed back that they are accidental annoying me?

Why should they appreciate your feedback? You being annoyed by something doesn't automatically make them wrong for doing it.

I used to find it annoying when my colleague tried to talk to me about football, but I know he was trying to 'involve' me in the team more and make me feel as though I was part of something. Telling him that it annoyed me would have made him feel bad and isolated me from my co-workers. It would certainly have created an unpleasant atmosphere at work, so I sucked it up.

Likewise, someone on the train last week annoyed my by cracking their knuckles, but why should my annoyance be prioritised over their desire to crack their knuckles?

Tmrgl · 01/07/2015 14:09

They would appreciate my feedback if they don't want to upset me.
If they don't care about upsetting me then why should I care that they don't appreciate my feedback?

DoJo · 01/07/2015 14:14

They would appreciate my feedback if they don't want to upset me.
If they don't care about upsetting me then why should I care that they don't appreciate my feedback?

Perhaps, but we weren't talking about anyone upsetting you, we were talking about people annoying you accidentally. The two aren't the same, and the examples I gave showed clearly why someone might not want your feedback.

HomeHelpMeGawd · 01/07/2015 14:36

Hi JonSnowKnowsNowt, and thanks for your kind words. I'm afraid I don't have a framework for assertive questions. But bear in mind that the essence of an assertive mindset is the balance of your needs and the other person's needs. So I would be explicit about how you would want to help the other person when you ask them for a favour.

JonSnowKnowsNowt · 01/07/2015 14:42

Good advice HomeHelp, will mull that over. :)

NRomanoff · 01/07/2015 14:54

Dojo why should it create an atmosphere?

The person annoying you is the person creating the atmosphere. As long as you tell some one in a respectful way, where is the problem?

This is why people get so mad at others, because they can't tell people they are made uncomfortable. So people just grin and bare it will screaming inside.

Why is it ok for someone to act in a way that annoys you, but not ok for you to tell them, nicely , you don't like it?

My boss used to hold people's hands when he talked to them.

He did it to me once I said 'that makes me uncomfortable, I know you don't intend toake me uncomfortable but it does' he was offended, annoyed or angry. There was no atmosphere, he understood that I didn't like it, I understood he didn't want to make me uncomfortable.

NRomanoff · 01/07/2015 14:58

Regarding the football mad colleague. I would point it out. I don't many people who give a shit about my hobbie, so I don't go on about it all the time. If I was boring people I would want to know.

The knuckle cracking...why does his right to crack his knuckles top your right to sit in peace?

It's about weighing up whether you can deal with it or if it's not that important. Someone who keeps going on and boring people need to know because eventually peoe will avoid them. Knuckle cracking you could possibly get over of its a short train journey

LashesandLipstick · 01/07/2015 15:05

This is why people get so mad at others, because they can't tell people they are made uncomfortable. So people just grin and bare it will screaming inside.

This is how I feel, people would get on a lot better if instead of putting up with it and eventually exploding or being passive aggressive, we just politely said "I know you didn't mean to but that upsets me, can you please not do it?". I don't see why that should offend a mature, professional adult.

OP posts:
Gemauve · 01/07/2015 15:15

we just politely said "I know you didn't mean to but that upsets me, can you please not do it?".

Presumably you would respond that their annoyance is illogical and therefore can be ignored? You appear to have a huge list of things you think other people should alter about their behaviour to suit you, but have no insight whatsoever into your own.

DoJo · 01/07/2015 15:16

Dojo why should it create an atmosphere?

Because he was doing it to try and be kind, and with a limited repertoire of conversation, this was his attempt to reach out to me and make me feel like part of the team. The fact that it annoyed me didn't mean that I couldn't see that it was intended to be a nice gesture, and to ask him not to keep trying to engage me would basically have been tantamount to telling him that I would prefer it if he never talked to me.

Why is it ok for someone to act in a way that annoys you, but not ok for you to tell them, nicely , you don't like it?

It's ok for him to act like that because his intentions were good, and (IMO) it's not ok for me to tell him that it annoys me because my intentions were purely selfish.

The knuckle cracking...why does his right to crack his knuckles top your right to sit in peace?

It didn't say that it does - I was giving it as an example of why someone would not necessarily appreciate my feedback as per Tmrgl's post.

This is the problem with saying something as simple as 'everyone should be honest' - it doesn't take into account the fact that being honest is often at odds with being kind and doesn't take into account the many factors at play in most human interactions.