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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

501 replies

LashesandLipstick · 30/06/2015 20:03

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

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Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 01/07/2015 15:21

Gemauve no. Even if I think someone's being illogical, I respect that it is annoying them and that they have told me about it

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Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 01/07/2015 15:22

Dojo I think people confuse being kind with licking someone's arse, it isn't the same thing.

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NRomanoff · 01/07/2015 15:29

Well that's different. I don't tell everyone the instant they annoy me, neither do I pretend I care about the premier division.

Some one who keeps going on and on without caring whether people are interested or not would be better to told gently, especially if they ask if you care about football

NRomanoff · 01/07/2015 15:34

Lashes I feel the same. I get so fed up of people moaning but never doing anything because they don't want offend or upset people. If someone is annoying, pa etc. on a regular basis, either tell them or accept how it is.

Most people don't let it go or deal with it. They spend ages thinking about it and getting stressed

NRomanoff · 01/07/2015 15:35

DoJo so you tell you husband he is annoying even if his intention is to kind?

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 01/07/2015 15:38

*Lashes I feel the same. I get so fed up of people moaning but never doing anything because they don't want offend or upset people. If someone is annoying, pa etc. on a regular basis, either tell them or accept how it is.

Most people don't let it go or deal with it. They spend ages thinking about it and getting stressed*

I just tell them "either do something or shut up about it*. I have no time for people who are like that, they really annoy me. There are better things to worry about than sitting there being angry because you're worried you'll offend someone by asking a perfectly reasonable question. Either tell them, or don't, but don't get so angry about it

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DoJo · 01/07/2015 16:20

Some one who keeps going on and on without caring whether people are interested or not would be better to told gently, especially if they ask if you care about football

You may believe so, but I didn't and wouldn't in a similar situation. The annoyance was less of a problem to me than the likely fall-out so I put up with the annoyance. Th

DoJo so you tell you husband he is annoying even if his intention is to kind?

For a one-off, no, but I have to live with him so we need to find ways to co-exist with one another on a much deeper level than I do with colleagues. We have chosen to spend our lives together, so we are more invested in ensuring each other's happiness. Someone who happened to be hired by the same company as me doesn't have that same desire to make me happy (and why should they?) so I would treat them completely differently and my expectations of their level of interest in not annoying me is much lower.

I also owe it to my husband to ensure that I am honest about things that may eventually damage our relationship, whereas I have little interest in any relationship with colleagues outside of rubbing along well enough in office hours.

TheDowagerCuntess · 02/07/2015 02:07

"I know you didn't mean to but that upsets me, can you please not do it?". I don't see why that should offend a mature, professional adult.

But, as has been explained countless times now, there is no way of knowing that the person will react as they should. And if they don't, then BAM, an atmosphere is created and it's uncomfortable.

People are not robots, programmed to behaviour in a set, identical, predictable way. Hence, why these social nuances have evolved.

TheDowagerCuntess · 02/07/2015 02:10

"I know you didn't mean to but that upsets me, can you please not do it?". I don't see why that should offend a mature, professional adult.

But, as has been explained countless times now, there is no way of knowing that the person will react as they should. And if they don't, then BAM, an atmosphere is created and it's uncomfortable.

People are not robots, programmed to behaviour in a set, identical, predictable way. Hence, why these social nuances have evolved.

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 07:22

Doweger firstly if people were used to being told the truth, there wouldn't be danger of people reacting badly. It's only a problem because we have got used doing this odd thing of dancing round issues. It's only a problem because we have started preferring this way of living where we don't meet problems head on.

Secondly if a manager takes it badly when you tell them you don't like to be touched, then there are serious issues with that manager. No one has the right to touch you, especially when you have told them you don't like it. Quite frankly, I think it awful that we have all these social nuances to avoid saying what we feel.

If someone came here saying theirs anger kept touching them, they would get told to tell the straight to stop it. If that person says that they did and he keeps doing it anyway, she would be told to complain to HR

And as for the 'it's bee 'Explained countless times' it has not been explained in a way, that to me makes it's seem like it's better than just being honest. Want a favour? Ask for it?

Someone upsets you? Tell them?

Also it's a debate, peoe can explain all they want, it does not meant agree. I have explained my position 'countless times' and you don't agree with me. So why is it I should have to change my opinon?

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 07:35

And dojo I genuinely do think so. Because that person may alienate people. Some may feel he is including them some may not.

I would make it clear I don't like foot ball, and the gently tell him if he carried on. I would feel alienated if he kept trying to talk to me about something I had no clue about.

Why is it ok for him to do that?

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 02/07/2015 07:48

Romanoff completely agree with your points. Just because someone has explained it doesn't mean their explanation makes sense or changes my position. I

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NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 07:50

Also ds, who was brought up trying to live in this 'don't say what you really feel in case someone takes it badly' social construct, ended up having to roved for her school due to bullying. It was so bad she had to be home schooled for a while til we found a different schools. She was anxious and acted like a beaten dog. She was terrified of being around people.

We found a school that taught her that, actually, when people make you uncomfortable it's good to speak up. Yesterday was a transition day at her secondary school. Where several of her bullies have also ended up going. The deputy head came over and told her one of the boys had attempted to intimidate her ds had responded by telling him his behaviour wasn't ok and made her uncomfortable. At which point he backed down, then the teachers removed him from the room and had a word. The deputy head thought she dealt with it beautifully. She wasn't upset or crying. She has learnt it's ok to tell people their behaviour is not ok.

I would rather she was like that, than the child she was 2 years ago when we worries every day that she would hurt herself.

This odd social constructs imo and my in my experience are damaging and favour people acting badly.

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 07:51

Not ds (as it says in the first line) I talking about dd. my I phone always changes it to ds...I think my phone is sexist Grin

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 07:52

Oh and quite honestly in this situation I don't care if the boy was upset or took her standing up to him badly. She took it badly when he restrained her by her hair and dragged her to the ground.

Gemauve · 02/07/2015 08:00

She took it badly when he restrained her by her hair and dragged her to the ground.

Yes, because that is exactly the same as asking to have a special meal cooked for your special requirements in someone else's house. However could anyone find a difference?

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 02/07/2015 08:06

Gemauve her point is this culture of not standing up for yourself led her daughter to feel powerless and made the bullying worse

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JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 08:08

And as for the 'it's bee 'Explained countless times' it has not been explained in a way, that to me makes it's seem like it's better than just being honest.

And that's the crux of it. The idea that there is an empirical 'better'. It's a flawed idea, unfortunately, because ideas of what is a better way to interact (a) are so hopelessly tied up with socialisation and conditioning and (b) are impossible to measure objectively, because of (a).

A reminder: the vast majority of people do not consciously choose to interact in the way people are finding annoying or inferior. It's the result of generations of cultural and social conditioning.

So - you see it as better. That's fine. But that doesn't actually make it the better way, and thus it becomes a totally futile argument.

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 08:13

gem basically what lashes said

You have missed the entire point. When that happened she was terrified. Not of the physical assault. But of trying to handle it in a way she wouldn't get in trouble too. It left her powerless. These social rules left her not knowing what to do.
Besides which I aren't comparing it to a bloody meal. If we lived in a society where people felt they could say what they need in a polite way. The meal wouldn't have been a big deal, because no one would be upset if the host said yes or no.

And my ds would understand it's actually ok to say 'you behaviour isn't acceptable'

So would the host at the fucking dinner party.

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 08:15

This odd social constructs imo and my in my experience are damaging and favour people acting badly.

Isn't what you've just described actually two microcultures at two different schools, rather than a broader social norm? If it was truly an accepted social construct you would have been unlikely to find better provision, and for the behaviours promoted at the second school to be welcomed and approved of at the secondary.

The fact that 2/3 of the schools in the scenario promoted the behaviour you find acceptable suggests that said behaviour is not transgressing a social convention, but that the culture of the first school was very problematic and led to a horrible experience for your daughter.

I'm not saying we shouldn't challenge the impacts of our socialisation, by the way. You should hear me on the subject of socialisation around gender roles, and I fight bloody hard on that one. But I do think that you need to accept it exists and be mindful of that framework to effect meaningful change.

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 08:15

No jassy it's a debate. I wish peoe were more honest. I also accept it isn't going to happen. Doesn't change my opinion. I am not trying to change anyone's mind.

We are debating. What I object to is the assumption that because someone has explained it 'countless times' it should be obvious and I should change my mind.

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 08:18

Yes I have found 2 schools across 2 council districts (about 30 schools) that think dd handles herself well.

The rest not so much. So I would say actually it is a social construct. Most schools encourage children not to get themselves into trouble for retaliating.

The encourage telling the teachers, who imo don't handle it

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 08:19

No jassy it's a debate.

My point is that it's an unwinnable one for any perspective put forward, given the huge sweep of issues that have been described on this thread.

I don't think anyone's trying to change your mind? Just trying to explain why people behave the way they do, and perhaps elicit a modicum of empathy and undrstabding rather than a resolute view (seemingly) that people who behave in those ways are flawed and empirically wrong.

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 08:22

Hang on, has your DD attended all those schools? It's difficult to determine an organisation's culture from a snapshot. But what you've described is how most places I've had dealings with would promote.

The interplay between organisational culture and broader national/societal culture is pretty fascinating, but the former isn't always a reflection of the latter. Particularly 'closed' environments such as schools.

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 08:26

I do think its wrong and wrong. I also accept some people don't think it is.

I am trying to solicit empathy for the position I hold but am told 'it's been explain numerous time' as though that should make me go 'oh yes you are right'

People have brought up points and I have put my point forward. Why is that not ok? But ok for people to counter my points?

Again a social construct that say because more people think something is right, then everyone else should stop going on about it.

I am not a follower and won't change my mind based on the majority. I will debate it and listen. Sometimes there are things I haven't thought about and it might change my mind. That hasn't happened here. I haven't read one thing that has changed my mind. I do not expect anyone to change theirs, maybe just understand that when people speak their mind it isn't the end of the world. As long as it's done respectfully.