AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

[LashesandLipstick]

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

Very nicely expressed andyourlittledogtoo

I read up to page 4 then just got bored. So I haven't RTFT. It's occurred to me that cultures that follow the 'guess model', most of the UK, Canada etc. are stable, rich, relatively good to live in and have a high standard of social care. Is this is 'thing'?

Because I live in Canada and what I interpret as passive aggressive, odd failures to express opinions actually equate to really, really caring about everyone's feelings and trying to make sure needs are met without having to ask. It might be frustrating but it works.

And Japan. I might be onto something.

Sorry, I haven't read all the responses either...

I agree that things would be simpler if people were a little more honest. You see thread after thread on mumsnet where the issue being discussed would be so simply solved if there was a bit more honesty.

Eg, not wanting to go on an expensive hen weekend but not saying anything or feeling used by a lift sharer rather than simply asking for a contribution for fuel.

I cringe when I hear people saying that they tell it like it is as that usually just means they are rude. There is nothing wrong with a few little white lies about how big bums look or similar harmless things but it's easier if you are honest with the bigger issues in life.

I'm a serial name changer but my posts regularly include something about NOT doing any PA crap and just being honest. Preferably in a polite and kind way.

I'm quite a helpful friend and find this means my friends feel comfortable to ask favours of me. If I don't want to do them I simply decline politely. It's so much better than making excuses or me doing the favours but feeling put out. Rather than putting off my friends from asking me favours it encourages them as they know that whilst I'm usually happy to help I'm also happy to say no.

Op - am I right in thinking that you are at medical school? (I may have got you muddled with someone else.) Because this type of "soft skill" really should be part of your training. (And to be honest it really concerns me that the fact that you find it so difficult was not picked up at interview.)

As a neurodivergent type I struggle with people who don't say what they mean or mean what they say. YANBU now if you could just explain this to my partner who confuses even neurotypical people with his weird made up phrases I'd be well chuffed.

I've not read all the thread - shoot me.

Surely it would be better if we were brought up to

have the confidence to ask if we want something
not take it personally or act like a brat if our request is turned down
have the confidence to say no if we don't want to do what someone requests and not feel guilty or be guilt tripped.

As things are now you have people who never ask because they fear being refused and feeling shit. people who ask assuming that, like them, the person will simply say no if they don't want to do something. people who have difficulty saying no then feel resentful and used, especially when they build up the courage to ask for a favour for the same person they've helped out before to say no.

Surely the first would be better etiquette and social norm?

I've not read all the thread - shoot me.

Surely it would be better if we were brought up to

have the confidence to ask if we want something
not take it personally or act like a brat if our request is turned down
have the confidence to say no if we don't want to do what someone requests and not feel guilty or be guilt tripped.

As things are now you have people who never ask because they fear being refused and feeling shit. people who ask assuming that, like them, the person will simply say no if they don't want to do something. people who have difficulty saying no then feel resentful and used, especially when they build up the courage to ask for a favour for the same person they've helped out before to say no.

Surely the first would be better etiquette and social norm?

I've been trying to think of a nice way to phrase this, but I can't so I guess in the spirit of the thread...

You are not meant to understand it Lashes. The rules were made by NT people to benefit NT people as the dominant majority. It is beyond the comprehension of someone with SN who perceives the world differently (this is not a slight, although this was the main part I was concerned with not being able to describe politely) - if the rules don't make sense to you then they just don't. It has been explained over and over and over again to you, you can't just repeatedly say "No but..." and think it will change the outcome. People can try and explain in a different way but they're still explaining the same thing - something you clearly cannot grasp. And you don't have to understand it if you can't - just accept it. Societies of the world will not change millenia of social conditioning which benefits the majority for the needs of the few.

If you legit want to know the intricacies of unspoken communication as others have suggested you could go and study it - but it still won't change the outcome!

None of this is to suggest you're thick or incapable or anything - but by your own admission you don't 'get' how NT people interact. That's ok. You don't have to. Most NT people don't 'get' people with SN either; we're looking at the same view from two different vantage points, that's all.

Great post, Cassie.

Too many people like the way it is now, for it to change.

Too many people like the convention of not asking a host to put themselves out further, for the picky needs of one individual.

The way it has been explained numerous times on this thread (and I'm guessing on the other; I haven't read it) suggests that if you haven't got it by now, you never will.

But you won't change the way it is, because the current norms work too well for the majority.

I'm not British, but I moved there in my early twenties and lived there for over a decade. Our social interaction framework is reasonably similar, but perhaps not quite as pronounced and nuanced as the British version.

I found the social conventions something I was able to slip into with great ease. They suit me. I'm a people-pleaser, gregarious, I loathe confrontation, I'm sensitive, very intuitive and empathetic. I hate other people feeling uncomfortable in my presence, will go to great lengths to avoid it, and will quietly form judgments about (and distance myself from) people who don't comply. And no, I wouldn't invite you back for dinner either, and I certainly would not explain why. I'd just move on from the acquaintance-ship, and concentrate on other friends.

I find the idea of the world you paint, with people just coming out and asking - and annoying people left, right and centre - deeply uncomfortable and unpleasant! I won't be switching to your model any time soon.

You think your way is preferable. Clearly too many others do not, hence why we have the set-up we have. You don't have to understand it.

Conventions, be they social, linguistic, familial etc exist because people feel comfortable and secure within the boundaries they create.
Those who wish to change convention can be seen as threatening stability, what seems "fair" to them is therefore unfair to the majority and would make them deeply uncomfortable.
While an individual can make an active choice not to follow convention, in most cases it is futile and deeply unreasonable to suggest that their way is better s they are proceeding on a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature.

I haven't RTFT but this sums up the issue for me:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/change-life-asker-guesser

I'm an asker but I get that some people aren't.

Button someone posted that and I think it explains it quite well. It's also possible like someone else said that a lot of people with SN just won't understand people who are NT.

If anyone knows which foreign countries have "ask" cultures, I'd be interested to know. I'm also interested in the rates of conditions like ASD in these cultures - I wonder if it's variable, as the line between directness and indirectness seems kind of blurred after reading some of these responses.

I think someone asked if I'm in med school, no I'm not

Posters seem to be talking as though there is a huge empty gulf between being 'honest' and not being honest. Where, in fact, there is a workable middle ground where you don't have to be insulting people all the time.

I'm not confrontational and I'm not rude but I am 'fairly' honest. I'm not going to tell you that your new hair color doesn't suit you but I will say that I don't won't to feed your cat while you are on holiday - and without giving a fake excuse.
I not claiming to be 100% successful but I don't do PA and I don't do 'casual' lies. If I've changed my mind about an invitation I wouldn't fake a reason for my own convenience. I would be very apologetic though.

There was a thread where the OP was getting unwanted daily hugs from a jolly coworker. That situation would never of happened with me. I wouldn't have been rude but I would have simply told her that I don't like hugs and would she stop.

I think it also helps that I have nice, like minded friends.

I've got a lot better at being honest as I've got older.

If someone had asked me to prepare something I didn't want to I would have phoned them and said that I couldn't do it but they were welcome to bing their own.

WhyTheDrama, that seems like a perfectly good way of doing things

With regards to hair cut, if someone ASKED, would you be honest? I'm not talking about going up to someone and saying "I don't like your hair"

Lashes

Have you read Kate Fox's 'watching the English'? It may be helpful for you to understand English conventions and etiquette.

I also think reading social anthropology books would be better than straight sociology.

Athena thanks I'll look it up! I haven't read it no

I read that Guardian article a few years ago and thought 'phew, I can just be a bit more direct with my pisstaker asker NDN, and she won't be put out if I say no to the endless favours she asks me'. Turns out she's both an asker and easily offended if she doesn't get what she wants.

Crabby that's just someone being difficult

MrsTerry, don't think so. Germany, Netherlands - blunt but high standard of living/social care. Back to the drawing board?

HomeHelp - I'm finding your posts particularly interesting on this very interesting thread. And I love your XYZ assertive no framework - I am going to try and start using that.

Do you have an assertive question framework too? I really struggle with asking people for favours because I am afraid that they will feel obliged to say yes (there are particular reasons why they will feel obliged). I could do with a framework that lets me say what I'd like to happen, while leaving it completely okay for the other person to say no if it doesn't suit them!

Since reading the responses I've been googling and found about high context and low context cultures which explains some of it.

I would suggest that instead of 'can you cook me something else' that 'would you mind if I brought something' is used. That suggests you wish to help not burden and gives room for the host to say 'yes pleasr that would help' or 'what would you like? Im happy to cook'.

I would happily say 'no sorry' or say that I have a lot to do already (though the latter leads an opening for pushy people. My best friend is more passive person then me though and a people pleaser. She would find it hard to say no for worry of causimg tension and have no chance against an aggressive asker.

Lashes it is worth looking into coursera for psychology courses. From one there I finally understood why we women are conditioned to apologize for things a lot. A course may help you understand how communication has evolved and hoe people can interpret words and tone different and how people can be passive and others inadvertently come accross more aggressive. The Myers briggs is good to look into too.

Masterchefiwish thanks! Looking on there now

No, it's not 'just somebody being difficult'. That's kinda the point...

When somebody asks something annoying of you, or something that's going to be a lot of work for you, you (clearly not you; generic 'you', i.e. people who conform to social norms) have no way of knowing how they'll react, and you suspect they'll react badly - because - people so often do.

If someone asks for plain chicken, they clearly want plain chicken, and so it's safe to assume that when you (again generic) say 'no', the result is hat they will get pissed off. With you. For saying no. Because most often, that's exactly what happens.