AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

[LashesandLipstick]

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

As a general comment, and without reading the whole thread, your thread title sounds just like something my dh would say. He's Spanish, I'm British, living in Spain. He has this huge issue with all my family and many British friends because he days we never day what we feel and are so bothered about being polite and not updating anyone. The more he highlights it, the more I see it and it becomes so bloody annoying.

Dh to dm - do you want to pick ds up from nursery?
Dm - well, if it will help you, then sure.
Dh - no, but do you WANT to pick him up?
Dm - we can do.
Dh - BUT DO YOU WANT TO DO IT???

Bumbley, that's not what Storm said. She simply said that there was significant evidence on this thread that it wasn't the only true or right way to think or react.

Jassy I think that's where the issue is - it's the socialisation. I'm planning on researching this but as it stands, so far I see most people aren't aware they've been socialised and so don't think about it (I sometimes think why can't people think for themselves) because they don't know it's there. So they can't make the effort to break it/change it because they don't know and don't look deeply enough. Is that correct?

Boca that's interesting! I like hearing other cultures views on this as I know some are more honest than others.

I sometimes think why can't people think for themselves) because they don't know it's there. So they can't make the effort to break it/change it because they don't know and don't look deeply enough. Is that correct?

I suggest (as I have done previously) that you actually do some significant reading around the issue if you're actually interested and not just looking for validation for your views. Your statements are quite a way off the mark.

The above statements are pretty offensive, actually. Again, you're (a) ignoring any socialisation you yourself have received (you've spoken about your family and how you think their behaviour is relevant to yours, for example), and (b) positing that if people 'thought for themselves', they'd think like you.

Do you accept that that is a rather egocentric viewpoint?

Jassy I'm planning on looking at it

I don't think it's offensive. I'm not ignoring it, I fully accept that some of my directness comes from being bought up around people who share a similar view.

If people thought for themselves, they might have a different view to me. But I don't think there'd be "because it is" which a lot of people seem to follow.

boca - in your example I think that is more about neithert wanting to feel obliged to the other. Your mum wants to be seen as the giver not the receiver but then again, perhaps your H does too. He wants to think he is doing your mum a favour by allowing her to do the nursery pick-up. He could have just said 'Would you mind doing it?' and then she could just have said 'No, I'd love to!' Job done.

But Boca - it's perfectly possible that your DM doesn't actively want to do the nursery pick-up, but is more than happy to do it, if needed.

So how should she respond...?

Your suggestion that people who don't behave the same way you do 'aren't thinking for themselves' is offensive. No two ways about it.

And that's exacerbated by you making statements and value judgements about people based about an issue you admit you haven't been bothered to do rudimentary research around, as well as reducing many pages of careful, detailed explanation of why certain behaviours and norms may have emerged as 'because it is'.

Jassy so you're telling me you think the majority of people think for themselves?

Some explanations have been helpful. DoJo and silver both gave some situations where I agreed I could see why in those cases being honest might not work. Some of your posts have been helpful. Other posts however seem to be "well that's just how it is"

And if I was in the receiving end of that line of questioning over an innocuous task, I'd be seriously wanting him to back off. And wondering why he was seemingly wanting to pick a fight with me.

But of course, if I said, 'back off', I'd be the rude one.

TheDowagerCuntess

"The questions are making me uncomfortable, I've said I'll pick your son up if you need me to."

Not rude at all.

Hmm. See, the example in the original thread was a practical one.

In the situation where one person is producing a meal for 6 people with 13 complex dishes out of a domestic kitchen, and one person isn't, the logical solution - the "better way to do things" - is that the additional different meal be produced elsewhere by the person not doing anything.

However, Lashes' contributions to that thread went approximately thus:

L: "Of course OP should produce an extra meal, how is that so HARD!"

13 other posters: clear, logical explanations of why it would be hard, with simple, logical alternative for fussy eater.

L: [ignores logical answers] "It's a simple request, can you cook something plain yes or no. If the OP says no I would think that's unfair"

23 other posters: challenge L.

L: claims it's all the fault of OP for not communicating clearly and being willing to say no.

33 other posters: point out L is not being consistent or logical, and has changed her tack from criticising OP for not producing the extra meal, to criticising OP for not saying no to extra meal.

L: starts throwing round words like "exclusion".

So for all this yelling that people are not saying what they mean, and she can't be a mindreader, that's not what's going on here. No mindreading is required: simple, logical explanations have been given.

And Lashes's questions are not of the I-need-information type. "Is that so HARD" has no purpose but emotional manipulation.

So I'm not seeing someone merely struggling to cope with social conventions she doesn't understand (and god knows, I'm in that category myself - it's a source of grief to me that I hurt my friends by not being able to read them).

I'm seeing someone very effectively using manipulative language and behaviour to get what she wants. Lashes even said she would badger people until they changed behaviour to what she wanted (which she defines as a "better solution", though to an observer it might not be). Her targets will give in to bring the disruptive badgering behaviour to a halt, not because they agree with her.

So I am seeing a lack of understanding here. But it's not "I don't understand what other people mean."

It's more "I don't understand why other people don't understand that the world revolves around me."

If people thought for themselves, they might have a different view to me. But I don't think there'd be "because it is" which a lot of people seem to follow.

So you're the only person capable of thinking for themselves, and everyone else is just blindly following the crowd because of their stupidity? For fuck's sake. Do you really think you're the only person in a room capable of independent thought? Seriously?

Lashes even said she would badger people until they changed behaviour to what she wanted

Regardless of the issues I have with your post in general, where have I ever said that?

If you choose to misinterpret me as being manipulative that's not my problem.

"The questions are making me uncomfortable, I've said I'll pick your son up if you need me to."

Not rude at all.

Boca's DH: BUT DO YOU WANT TO DO IT???

Gemauve where have I said I'M the only person? Plenty of people capable of it, I just don't think the majority do it often.

TheDowagerCuntess

If he keeps doing it just say "please stop asking me". I'm on his side with regards to the questions but if you want him to stop just ask him nicely.

Yes Lashes, all us 'NTs' are just mindless drones, you're the only special snowflake capable of independent thought.

If only I could be more like you!

And I do struggle to read situations and understand what people mean. I hate it when people hint or give signals and don't say what they mean.

But I hate it because fundamentally I don't want to hurt my friends, and their not saying things means I am more likely to hurt them or to get into a painful muddle with them.

Not to enable me to manipulate them better by using their politeness against them.

People are thinking all over this thread, Lashes.

But you clearly have all the answers, and are right, so not much more to be said, really.

George again I haven't said that, but if that's what you want to think, fine by me.

Pausing again where have I said I'd manipulate anyone? We have different views in as much as you hate it because you want to fit in, I say why should we have to fit in?

TheDowagerCuntess

SOME are. Others aren't.

You seem to think that your way is the only possible right way.

I think your way of dealing with people, and especially your way of treating your friends, sounds abrasive and unpleasant.

Don't suggest that people who don't think or act like you are doing it "because they want to fit in". People have explained to you over and over why they do the things they do, mostly out of concern and courtesy for others.