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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

501 replies

LashesandLipstick · 30/06/2015 20:03

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

OP posts:
DoJo · 02/07/2015 23:25

Has anyone, at all, claimed that they were logical?

In fairness, I have said that there is logic to it, which I believe there is, albeit not necessarily obvious logic or of a type which is easy to interpret or follow if you find it hard to understand the subtext of social discourse or predict the possible outcomes of your actions on a stranger.

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 23:29

Ah. My definition of kindness also includes trying to make people feel better about themselves. I don't think it's just a therapist's job.

Jassy I thought that by claiming that they "work for most", the implication is there must be logic there? If that's not what was meant then I've got that wrong

That's a big assumption, particularly in the context of socialisation and cultural norms. If cultural norms were objectively logical, why would they differ between countries, between regions, and even between microcultures?

There is also the extreme challenge of defining what is objectively logical when it comes to behaviour, given that there is no unsocialised arbiter who can give a petspective unclouded by their own assumptions and experiences.

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 23:30

DoJo, I can see that - a kind of internal logic within a framework?

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 23:35

Lashes, on the first couple of pages of the other thread, you wrote:

It's a simple request, can you cook something plain yes or no. If the OP says no I would think that's unfair

There was no corrolary about bringing your own food. And as a statement it seems incompatible with not having a problem with it.

GnomeDePlume · 02/07/2015 23:58

lashes, you remind me of a Polish colleague of mine who was marrying a Dutch man but considered Dutch hospitality rude and unwelcoming. We talked about it many times but in her mind Polish hospitality was the only way to do things. She couldnt understand that to many Dutch people, Polish hospitality was overwhelming. She was culturally uninformed.

CassieBearRawr · 03/07/2015 00:12

The weirdest thing to me about this thread is that the crux of lashes inability to understand social nuance is due to her SN, so all the explaining in the world is unlikely to elucidate her on why society works this way. I mean people can try to explain (and they have! 14 pages of it!) but if it's incompatible with your perspective on the world you either understand it or you don't, there's not really a middle ground.

Heebiejeebie · 03/07/2015 00:41

Have you ever watched Star Trek?

CassieBearRawr · 03/07/2015 00:46

Me?

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 03/07/2015 07:49

Jassy I'd already mentioned own food before I said that

"it's not fair that people with food issues be excluded from social events - that would be really unfair. I often ask if they could cook something different OR if I can bring my own."

Heebie is this a Spock reference?

OP posts:
Stormtreader · 03/07/2015 09:48

But this all is so confusing, because its all so incredibly and clearly logical.

When you have people you like, you want them to feel happy and be a positive experience in their lives, to maximise both their happiness and the likelihood that they will continue to want you around as much or more than previously. There are ways to give answers to questions in ways that support that.
"Do you like my new shoes?"
"I think your other ones suit you more" or "Im not sure they work with that outfit" or "theyre not my taste to be honest, but to each his own!"
Do you see how none of these are "Oh my god, those are hideous! They look awful" and yet still convey the message that they are not amazing?

When you say its not logical, I think what you really mean is its not easy or the most direct way to say something, which is what you personally prefer. Its very logical.

Id argue its less logical to be so certain that your way is the one true and correct way when you havent had a single person here agree with you. You might want to think about why that might be.

JassyRadlett · 03/07/2015 09:54

Lashes, with the best will in the wod, there is difference between what you say you would do, and how you say you would feel if the host said no to cooking for you.

It was just one example. You went on at length to argue why the host should have no problem with the request.

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 03/07/2015 09:56

Storm I've never said to say "oh my god those are hideous". A minority of people have agreed actually.

Jassy even if someone feels "well they could have cooked it" they should at least respect the persons honesty. At least I would.

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 03/07/2015 10:00

So - you would think it unfair if the cook wouldn't comply with your request? That's really the only way to read your previous sentence - otherwise, what's unfair?

they should at least respect the persons honesty.

Why?

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 03/07/2015 10:07

Jassy not exactly. I might think "...okay. Not what I'D do but fine". Unfair isn't the right word.

Because the persons been straight up, and obviously respects the friend enough to give their view

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 03/07/2015 10:14

Jassy not exactly. I might think "...okay. Not what I'D do but fine". Unfair isn't the right word.

Then why did you use it?

Because the persons been straight up, and obviously respects the friend enough to give their view

Ah. I see. You're expecting other people to understand your unstated motivations. Irony?

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 03/07/2015 10:16

Jassy

Because at that moment I was pissed off with the comments on the first page. Look how many people are being offensive

No, but surely you'd respect someone for not treating you like an idiot (lying to you?)

OP posts:
TheDowagerCuntess · 03/07/2015 10:21

Yes, I'd really respect someone for 'giving me their view' Hmm and creating extra work for me.

Them 'giving me their view' in this particular situation is neither here nor there. What's so great about them 'giving me their view', anyway? They're not 'giving me their view'; they're putting their order in, and treating me like an unpaid reastaurant.

JassyRadlett · 03/07/2015 10:22

I'm confused. Which one was a lie? The unfair comment? The insistence it shouldn't be an issue?

No, but surely you'd respect someone for not treating you like an idiot (lying to you?)

First, I think there are many steps between those two points. As others have said, 'bring straight up' is often code for 'behaving in a self-centred and sometimes hurtful and cruel way.'

I would have a great deal more respect for any individual, friend or not, who demonstrated they cared about my feelings and wellbeing, than one who expected 'respect' for making sure I knew their exact opinion of me at any point in time.

You say 'surely' in your sentence. Again, projecting your norms/preferences onto others. I thought you objected to people doing that.

DoJo · 03/07/2015 10:23

Because the persons been straight up, and obviously respects the friend enough to give their view

But that assumes that everyone agrees that people are honest with you because they respect you, which is not the case. Sometimes people are honest because they actively want to hurt someone, sometimes they are honest because they simply don't care enough about another person's feelings to soften their opinions to avoid hurting their feelings. Equating honesty with respect might be one of the reasons why your approach is so different to that of other people as it is not a 'given' in most social interactions.

TheDowagerCuntess · 03/07/2015 10:24

^^ Again, this is what I mean about total inconsistency and goalpost shifting.

It's unreal to watch.

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 03/07/2015 10:26

TheDowagerCuntess it's not an order it's a question.

Jassy it's not a lie - on a personal level I feel it's a bit...unfair is too strong but a bit rich to say "I can cook 14 complicated courses but something plan is too much trouble" BUT I still think it shouldn't be an issue if the person refuses. I don't know if I'm explaining that properly?

That's where we differ - someone who put my feelings above the truth in a situation (except a minority of circumstances) would piss be off. I'd feel patronised!

I'll type in a more objective Way if that helps

OP posts:
Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 03/07/2015 10:27

Equating honesty with respect might be one of the reasons why your approach is so different to that of other people as it is not a 'given' in most social interactions.

Dojo you might be right about that. If you have a different opinion on what honesty is used for, you will interpret it differently

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 03/07/2015 10:28

Storm, just because a small sample of people from MN don't agree with her doesn't mean that she has to rethink her opinions. Some people do agree with her here and there are probably quite a few more in RL.

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 03/07/2015 10:33

Bumble thank you. Also "well the majority do it" isn't a good argument for doing/not doing something

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 03/07/2015 10:34

Jassy it's not a lie - on a personal level I feel it's a bit...unfair is too strong but a bit rich to say "I can cook 14 complicated courses but something plan is too much trouble" BUT I still think it shouldn't be an issue if the person refuses. I don't know if I'm explaining that properly?

But if your host is empathetic or cares about her guests having a good time, or has been socialised to feel she has to make guests feel a certain way, it is an issue for her if you think it is unfair or unreasonable that she is unwilling to add to an already significant workload. Regardless of whether you think it should be or not.