AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

[LashesandLipstick]

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

Tuskerfull

This might come over harsh online, and it's not meant to but...

I'm not their therapist not am I there to fix any self confidence issues. I'm also not into compliment fishing. Therefore if you ask me, you are going to get my honest opinion. If your self esteem is so fragile that me not liking your shoes will upset you, then you should look into doing something about your issues.

I care that I treat others how I would like them to treat me. I can't stand arselicking and lying and would be very upset if someone did that to me. So I don't do it. If someone is really hurt by that they can always not hang around with me, as this thread demonstrates plenty of people will tell them they look great when they clearly don't!

I think it's really sad that you don't care about your friends' confidence or their feelings.

I care about them, which is why if they had issues I'd tell them to seek advice rather than try to get reassurance from external sources which is a crap long term solution

Having a down day does not mean you need a therapist, or any kind of long term solution.

And if you're just having a bad day then you wouldn't be deeply offended by a friend not liking your shoes

But my point is you do need to read the situation and why someone is asking you.

Just saying being honest is always best doesn't work for me. I tend to be honest as a default option, and not flatter unduly... However being kind, thoughtful and sensitive to the other person's ego are often more important to me. You need to work out why someone has asked "do you like my shoes" before giving your opinion. Why have they asked, how are they feeling, what would the advantages/disadvantages of being totally honest, how have they reacted to your opinion in the past and so on.

Human interaction is complex you can't just say why is everyone not f*ing honest.

Silver I agree there are a few situations like the one you mentioned, however I think honesty should be the default instead of the exception. Obviously one approach won't work for everything whether it's honesty or lying

I think honesty should be the default instead of the exception.

Whereas I would say that there is no 'default' - each situation needs a response that it appropriate, and it shouldn't be a case of 'defaulting' to one method of dealing with a situation when there are SO many shades between brutal honesty and outright lying that could make life easier for all involved.

For that matter, here is no one type of honesty either - you can say exactly the same thing in a different tone of voice and come across completely differently, let alone the shades of grey between saying something like 'your face is too fat to suit a fringe' and saying 'I always thought long layers would look better on you than a fringe' - they are both honest, both saying the same thing, but one is likely to go down a lot better!

But Lashes it has been said many times that you are purely seeing it from your own point of view.

Do you accept that there are different cultural norms?

Amongst your group of friends (a micro culture) being very literal is the cultural norm. In another culture being less literal is a cultural norm.

Can you not see that it is simply a cultural norm that is different?

Neither is wrong, both are right just different from each other.

This is why people get so mad at others, because they can't tell people they are made uncomfortable. So people just grin and bare it will screaming inside.

This is how I feel, people would get on a lot better if instead of putting up with it and eventually exploding or being passive aggressive, we just politely said "I know you didn't mean to but that upsets me, can you please not do it?". I don't see why that should offend a mature, professional adult.

OK then Lashes..... "When I've put together a menu for a dinner party and someone comes along and asks me to put in a whole heap of extra work to produce something different just for them, it upsets me. I know they don't mean to upset me but it does. So can you please not do it?" Obviously as a mature, professional adult you'll take heed of this.

Anon if you told me that, I would never ask you to cook extra food again. Because while it's not what I would do, I respect your choice and your honesty.

Gnome I see it, I just don't see it as making sense as I see too much room for things to go wrong. Misinterpretation everywhere! I accept people do it however I don't think it's the best way just because people do it. I don't think it's wrong, I just think it would be easier if as a society we were a bit more direct

OK then Lashes..... "When I've put together a menu for a dinner party and someone comes along and asks me to put in a whole heap of extra work to produce something different just for them, it upsets me. I know they don't mean to upset me but it does. So can you please not do it?" Obviously as a mature, professional adult you'll take heed of this.

Obviously not. Because that would be unfair, nasty, etc according to Lashes.

cannot BELIEVE I've got sucked back into this

Pumpkin when did I say it was unfair and nasty? Providing she didn't say I couldn't bring my own food I wouldn't be too fussed. While it's not the decision id make, I can respect someone else's choice.

I've said this numerous times

Anon if you told me that, I would never ask you to cook extra food again. Because while it's not what I would do, I respect your choice and your honesty.

You would never ask again. But you're one individual amongst a billion inhabitants on earth.

You might take it well, and never ask again, but what about someone else?

There is no way of knowing how anyone will react, because humans aren't mind-readers. And chances are the person being refused will react badly.

Lather, rinse, repeat....

Anon if you told me that, I would never ask you to cook extra food again. Because while it's not what I would do, I respect your choice and your honesty.

Most people are telling you exactly this though. So, on the balance of probability (and assuming you would rather avoid offending someone in the first place rather than offend them and then be told about it) maybe don't ask a host at a dinner party to cook you separate food; rather than putting them in what you now know to likely be an uncomfortable/offended/put upon position (whether you would feel the same way or not) and then condemning them for not wanting the (possible) conflict attached to them saying what they really feel.

Pumpkin when did I say it was unfair and nasty? Providing she didn't say I couldn't bring my own food I wouldn't be too fussed. While it's not the decision id make, I can respect someone else's choice.

Lashes you said further up this thread that if they wouldn't make a different meal for you it was "unfair" and "a bit harsh". And that is why people avoid just saying "no" to such requests, because they know that some people would think them saying "no" was unfair/harsh and they don't want either someone else to feel like that or the resultant atmosphere.

Pumpkin when did I say it was unfair and nasty? Providing she didn't say I couldn't bring my own food I wouldn't be too fussed. While it's not the decision id make, I can respect someone else's choice.

You're adding caveats to this now. PP didn't say anything about bringing/not bringing your own food, I don't think.

A request not to self cater could be the very next words out of her mouth.

I'd be really annoyed if I asked someone's opinion and they just arse licked.

By arse-licking, do you mean 'considering the potential impact of my words and behaviour on my friend, and accepting that the way I react is not necessarily the way they will react?'

From your recent posts, you seem to feel that friendship to you doesn't involve making your friends feel good about themselves when they're around you. Can you let me know if I've got that right? What do you see as your role in their lives? I'm honestly trying to understand.

Pumpkin when did I say it was unfair and nasty? Providing she didn't say I couldn't bring my own food I wouldn't be too fussed. While it's not the decision id make, I can respect someone else's choice.

Lashes, given that you put such a high priority on honesty and truth, do you think you might go back over the earlier pages of the other thread and read your posts? The above statement is directly contradicted by statements you made there.

Christ almighty this thread

Unbelievable obtuseness on display.

TheDowagerCuntess no people aren't mind readers, which is exactly the point myself and Romanoff have been trying to make! If people aren't mind readers then the social rules aren't logical!

Anon, I'd hope the people I choose to associate with aren't the sort to get offended by that, and usually I'm right in that most of my friends a aren't. I mean I'm a pretty blunt person and I don't hide that, so if you know you're the sort of person who doesn't like it I don't see why you'd hang around with me.

TheDowagerCuntess no people aren't mind readers, which is exactly the point myself and Romanoff have been trying to make! If people aren't mind readers then the social rules aren't logical!

Has anyone, at all, claimed that they were logical?

Jassy

I believe the point of friendship is to have fun together, to have someone to rely on, and to be kind to eachother. To me, being trustworthy is included in being kind and being someone they can rely on. To be trustworthy means being honest even if it's not what someone wants to hear.

For example, people often ask me things because they "know you'll tell me straight". They know they can trust me to be honest. That in my opinion is a good thing

I don't think I said anything against that? I said I don't think cooking plain food is that much extra effort, which I dont, but providing the person didn't exclude the individual and stop them bringing food, I wouldn't have a problem (although personally I'd just cook the chicken as it seems very mjnor)

Jassy I thought that by claiming that they "work for most", the implication is there must be logic there? If that's not what was meant then I've got that wrong

Anon, I'd hope the people I choose to associate with aren't the sort to get offended by that, and usually I'm right in that most of my friends a aren't. I mean I'm a pretty blunt person and I don't hide that, so if you know you're the sort of person who doesn't like it I don't see why you'd hang around with me.

But again, you're talking about people you know and people whose reactions you can predict relatively accurately, whereas most people have agreed that honesty is pretty much at its peak amongst those who fit that criteria. The initial scenario (and that which I think probably causes the most confusion) is one where someone is interacting with a person who they do not know well, whose reactions they can't predict and who they want to avoid upsetting, hence they choose the path which is least likely to cause offence rather than blunt honesty.

DoJo I can see why someone might choose that if they don't know someone well. i don't think it's sensible but I can understand why someone else might.