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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

501 replies

LashesandLipstick · 30/06/2015 20:03

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

OP posts:
NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 15:11

jassy the maybe not assuming my dd went to 30 schools because I menioned 30 schools, not accepting that most schools in my area use techniques I don't approve of, even though the council (who looks after these schools agreed), Not crossing out statements with degrotary comments (either write them or don't) , not asking questions when you are actually only trying to lead someone into a response you want then getting annoyed because you don't get the answer you want.

Not all these are you but examples of where I feel I wasn't listened to.

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 15:42

jassy the maybe not assuming my dd went to 30 schools because I menioned 30 schools, not accepting that most schools in my area use techniques I don't approve of, even though the council (who looks after these schools agreed)

Hang on - I asked you a question further to something you said u felt wasn't clear. You clarified, I apologised for misunderstanding. Not sure how that's 'not listening'?

You've just included a fair bit more information than you did in response to my questions, which makes things an awful lot more comprehensibe than before.

Maybe check your own assumptions of how people are interacting with you? If you don't treat them in good faith, and you apply motivations to them that you've assumed rather than are explicit, then you're doing pretty much what you complain others do to you.

You also didn't answer the question I actually asked.

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 15:43

Hang on - I asked you a question further to something you said u felt wasn't clear

Typo - 'u' should read 'I'. Textspeak isn't my style, but phone based typos often are.

GnomeDePlume · 02/07/2015 15:46

A simplistic way of looking at the problem could be to see it as task focus or relationship focus. Some cultures are more task focused, others are more relationship focused.

Take the humble does my bum look big in this question:

Task Focus
Q: Does my bum look big in this?
A: Yes

Simple question and answer, information sought and received. The task is complete.

Relationship Focus

Q: Does my bum look big in this?
A: Well, that dress you wore at the BBQ last week looked nicer on you. By the way did you have a nice time? Wasn’t it great!
Q: Wasn’t it a hoot! You are right about that dress but I’m not sure if I want to wear it again so soon….

Different, the relationship has been enhanced by the conversation.

If both people are of the same culture then they will both be happy with the exchange.

Problem is if their expectations are different. As a PP said, neither is wrong. The trick is to try to work out what the other person’s focus is, task or relationship. Also, this isn’t about the asker. They are looking for something from the askee so they should try to follow the askee’s norms not impose their own.

MissPenelopeLumawoo2 · 02/07/2015 15:47

I also find the whole 'who is right and wrong' odd in this context as we are different people with different opinions and lives. Different but not right or wrong

But the OP does not feel that way. She ends the opening post with 'Stop it' -we are being commanded to change because the OP feels her way is the right way. It does not convey any sense of tolerance towards different opinions & lives.

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 15:51

Jassy I mentioned the council several times into previous posts.

You asked a question 'what would make you feel listened to' I feel I have fully answered it.

I also said further up thread that maybe we all are reading things into posts that aren't there

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 15:53

miss but I am not the OP

NRomanoff · 02/07/2015 15:56

And I wasn't the one that started discussing whether we felt we were being listened to or not.

I simply repainted that I felt a similar way.

Tuskerfull · 02/07/2015 15:57

But the OP does not feel that way. She ends the opening post with 'Stop it' -we are being commanded to change because the OP feels her way is the right way. It does not convey any sense of tolerance towards different opinions & lives.

I think that's why this thread is so frustrating for many. The OP didn't come here to understand why people are not always honest, she just wants them to stop doing it. All the people trying to explain to her, and to NRomanoff, why honesty isn't always the best policy are wasting their time.

JassyRadlett · 02/07/2015 15:57

You asked a question 'what would make you feel listened to' I feel I have fully answered it.

To me there is a huge gap between 'these are examples of when I didn't feel listened to' and 'here is an example of a response that would make me feel listened to'.

I'm glaf you accept that you were making assumptions about my motivations that simply didn't exist; I'd hoped my apology would have achieved that but clearly not.

Sazzle41 · 02/07/2015 16:09

I can see where are coming from OP but God it would be carnage where I work if people did that instead of using 'corporate speak'.... but if it ever did happen, I'd lurve to sit on sidelines, observing - with popcorn. I also find it funny watching people observing social etiquette/corporate speak rules when they are quite clearly absolutely fuming/dying to shout - how could you do that, you fuckwit. But then i am socially challenged anyway tho i am working on it and way better than i was!

Stormtreader · 02/07/2015 16:41

Speaking only for the UK, British manners are to do with this being a very small island. When you are around the same groups of people all day with limited options for finding a new group, you learn to "get along" as best as you can.

You have to be careful about saying "Well, I'm doing what works for me! And anyone who doesn't like that can just not speak to me!" because that reputation will spread quickly in a small village and very soon everyone may well decide that the easiest way to have a harmonious little community is for the loud demanding person to just...not be in it any more.

Its a very logical outcome for careful consideration to have become the default British attitude.

By taking the attitude that "you must tell me to my face or I'm doing this!" is taking unfair advantage of the fact that YOU KNOW most people are not comfortable in doing that, and the people who DO tell you are just not being listened to, like youre not listening on this thread either.

GnomeDePlume · 02/07/2015 17:04

Stormtreader, I agree, it is the cultural equivalent of shouting in your own language rather than trying to work out a way of communicating with the other person in a way they will understand.

MissPenelopeLumawoo2 · 02/07/2015 17:06

miss but I am not the OP

I know Romanoff, but I was using your very valid point about different opinions to illustrate that the OP was not interested in others opinions and just wants everyone to fall in line with her own.

Gruntfuttock · 02/07/2015 17:09

Taytocrisps, I've only just started reading this thread, so am harking back to your post about Ireland and turning down an offer of food and drink which is ignored and that's fine because you all know the game. But what if someone genuinely doesn't want any food or drink? How do they convey that? Confused Also, if someone didn't know the game and answered in the affirmative when offered, how would they be treated from then onwards, bearing in mind it's considered so rude?

FanFuckingTastic · 02/07/2015 17:46

I used to be overly focused on what I perceived to be right and wrong, I couldn't understand why people didn't see it my way. My mum got it through to me that it's very rigid, black and white thinking, and can be offensive to others.

I am able to mostly accommodate that idea into communicating with other people, although I do have to remember to stop and ensure I do it, rather than it coming naturally. I still don't understand that my idea of what is right isn't the same for everybody, because I feel so strongly about it, but I guess my mum has helped me to see that there can be different approaches to the same result.

I still take the shortest path, because that makes sense to me, and being direct is more comfortable to me, either I join in as myself, or I don't participate at all, rather than modifying my behaviour to suit others.

People can get through to me eventually, I need to be talked through it several different times before I make the connection, and there are some things where I never quite get it and just have to agree to disagree (in my head), and maybe that's the point this thread is reaching?

Teaching social niceties to someone with Aspergers/Autism can sometimes be very frustrating for both sides, it seems really simple when you are NT and you don't understand why they are being so bullheaded about something they believe when you've explained several times. I know I drive my mother crazy, but I also know I am safe to be myself with her and she'll get it, and try to explain the stuff I don't get so I am not outright offensive.

TheDowagerCuntess · 02/07/2015 18:37

Don't you think that's cowardly?

Sorry, just waking up. Other side of the world, here.

No, I don't. I think it's being polite.

Besides, even in this case, on an anonymous Internet forum, I'm not going to give Romanoff my opinion of her (him? I'm going to assume her), or rather of her posting style, or comments on this thread, because it's not overly complimentary.

Suffice to say, I very much stand by my earlier comments re inconsistency and shifting of goalposts. Homesty's fine when you're applying it to other people, and you never, ever know quite how much honesty every individual can take!

The honesty approach would be anarchical, if we applied it consistently and without hesitation in all circumstances.

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 02/07/2015 20:01

There's a difference between honesty and walking up to people shoving your opinions in their face. If I asked someone "do my shoes look good?" And they said "no I don't like them" I wouldn't say that's rude. If they walked up to me and said "your shoes are ugly" that would be rude.

There is a difference

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 02/07/2015 20:06

True Lashes.

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 02/07/2015 20:12

Bumbley I think people confuse honesty and rudeness because culturally so many people aren't honest! There are ways of saying something politely AND honestly. It doesn't have to be insulting.

OP posts:
Tuskerfull · 02/07/2015 20:13

But why would you tell the person you don't like their shoes, which will quite possibly make them feel self-conscious and upset, when you could just say "they look fine"? Or something that's not a lie but is kind, like "the colour matches the rest of your outfit really well". You could always find something positive to say.

I can't understand thinking that honesty is always more important than somebody else's feelings.

SilverBirchWithout · 02/07/2015 20:15

But context is also important. If someone is trying a pair of shoes on in a shop and asks are this good?, your honest opinion might be very useful to prevent a poor purchase.

If they are the only pair of shoes that match someone's outfit and they are on the way to a wedding and lacking a bit of self-confidence about how the look, telling them they are the most ghastly shoes you have ever seen, would be unkind and pointless.

Tuskerfull · 02/07/2015 20:19

That's true about context, Silver. I don't think that's what Lashes was talking about because the person in her example says "do you like my shoes?" so they have already bought them (and in which case being honest about disliking them won't have any positive results) but your scenario is a good example of where honestly is appropriate.

Original poster
LashesandLipstick · 02/07/2015 20:21

Tuskerfull because if they've asked your opinion, they obviously want to know. Maybe they're not sure about the shoes. Maybe they don't like them but someone else said they look nice. Maybe they like them but feel they don't go with their trousers. Maybe they love the shoes and want to know if you do too.

If they didn't want honesty they should not have asked. I'd be really annoyed if I asked someone's opinion and they just arse licked.

Silver, I agree that in the last situation it would be "nicer" to lie. However that is THE ONLY thing I can imagine where it would be the best option.

OP posts:
Tuskerfull · 02/07/2015 20:28

No, Lashes. There are many reasons they might have asked your opinion:

  • they lack confidence and need external assurance
  • someone has hinted that they don't like the shoes, and they want reassurance that they don't look terrible
  • they are feeling down and want a confidence boost

If they have bought the shoes and are wearing them, they clearly like the shoes. Telling them the shoes look bad can have no possible positive outcome, so why would you do it?

Once again, you can only look at this from YOUR perspective. Can you not see that you need to try and put yourself in other people's shoes, so to speak? Do you not care that your behaviour might be upsetting people, and want to understand how you can avoid hurting others?