AIBU to think people should say what they fucking mean?

[LashesandLipstick]

Inspired by threads in which I was told asking a question is rude because "people feel awkward saying no" and "if the person wants to, offer to do it yourself and if they want to they'll tell you not to and offer instead"

AIBU to think people shouldn't play these stupid games? Just say what you mean for Christs sake. I'm sure an adult can take you politely saying no to a request. All this does is cause confusion and create weird social norms that make no sense and confuse the hell out of people who aren't neurotypical or who are foreign.

Stop it.

Neither is right. We are on a forum, we are reading things in the way we interpret them. Perhaps not in the way they are intended. That's the problem with forums. In RL being able to read body language and tone, the conversation might be different.

We probably wouldn't agree, but it would still be different

Or looking at it another way....we are all right!

Not particularly, no.

NRomanoff

And dojo I genuinely do think so. Because that person may alienate people. Some may feel he is including them some may not.

I appreciate that you think that it would be worth telling him - for me it wouldn't have been, which is why I didn't. I didn't consider it my job to help him avoid alienating other people, so if others felt like you about it and wanted to point out how boring his conversation was then I assume they would have done, but in terms of his general approach to life, I took the view that it was his problem, and for the most part, his friends outside work did just talk about football, so I assume he was generally fine with his approach.

I would make it clear I don't like foot ball, and the gently tell him if he carried on. I would feel alienated if he kept trying to talk to me about something I had no clue about.

I didn't feel alienated - I knew that he was trying to include me in a conversation and I appreciated that, even though I had no interest in the topic. His was a small world - he had actually said to me outright that he didn't understand half of what I said when we tried to discuss other things as he had no interest in current affairs, music or even the same TV programmes as me. We were inherently incompatible people, but it was neither of our faults, so I did what I could to make our working relationship the least awkward I could.

Why is it ok for him to do that?

Because there was no malice, no bad intention and no other alternative other than never having a conversation with the person who sat opposite me for 8 hours a day! I wanted to make life easier for both of us, and I judged that it was easier for me to suck up some boring football chat than for him to develop an interest in other subjects.

FWIW, since the whole debate has gone a bit meta - I took our discourse to be of fairly neutral tone and have answered your questions in the spirit which I assumed they were intended - of my furthering your understanding of how and why people work within the social constructs, whilst you gave your perspective on how confusing and pointless it all seems to you!

I hope that my answers have been as enlightening as I have found your questions, and even if we don't agree on how things should work, I do understand that the nuances of social discourse are hugely complex and can seem completely impenetrable, although I do think that there is some underlying logic to them if you know where to look!

What appears to be missing from this thread is the importance of non-verbal communication.

Body language and tone is often more influential in how we react to what is a being said to us than the exact phrasing of a request. In the examples above: a colleague talking to us about sport can more easily be dealt with by a wry smile, eyebrows being raised and a comedy yawn with causing any alienation, than a direct request to desist. A boss' inapropriate behaviour, such as holding our hand when discussing something with us, would normally (& subconsciously) be met with an uncomfortable look on your face, and pulling your hand away at the earliest opportunity

That is why frequently discussions turn into a bun fight on MN, we don't always know the real intention and meaning of what is being said.

The difference in language cultural norms between countries may also be to do with the degree body language is part of their communication. I suspect cultures with less tone and BLanguage tend to be more direct in their speech.

You only need to look at animals to see how important this is, my cat will give a number of clues that he is not willing to do something before he ends up scratching you. He is saying I'm busy doing something else, I'm not in the mood, that is making me uncomfortable, I'm going to something else, F. off! In a series of steps. Human social convention is just a series of these steps to avoid confrontation, which actually keeps us safe and maintains relationships. If my cat was more direct all the time, I will probably try to have him rehomed!

In the chicken breast example, the host could get her message across quite simply by a raise of the eyebrows and the tone she uses when saying "oh"!

Not particularly, no.

But why not...? The title of the thread is: 'AIBU to think people should just say what they fucking mean?'

And you've spent the duration of the thread agreeing with that.

And you've felt perfectly able to tell me that I'm 'passive aggressive', that you're 'being honest, in telling me that'. And that you're 'not uncomfortable telling me, and not uncomfortable in my reaction'. Quote, unquote.

Now, all of a sudden, you're shying away from me doing the same to you.

And you couldn't understand why I accused you of moving the goalposts and being inconsistent.

Huh...

Do you like my honesty, by the way?

Or would you prefer me to revert to my usual, real-life, oils-the-social-wheels and 'plays nice' persona?

*several typos

Actually this is probably why emoticons exist too.

Dojo I love those answers. I can only look at it from my point of view and putting together answer where being honest would be better, imo.

But it is only my opinion.

I certainly don't think I am always right and enjoy a debate and seeing things from others points of view. Even if it doesn't change my mind

No one ever gets harmed for looking at things from someone else view.

dowager did I say you couldn't tell me?

You asked me if I wanted to know, I said not particularly.

I didn't say you couldn't share your opinion. You asked a question and I answered honestly. Why ask a question if you are looking for only one answer?

I am glad you feel you can be honest. I am not offended or upset. I don't know you, why would the opinion of someone I don't know upset me?

You don't want to know my opinion of you.

For someone that believes people should always be honest and open, that's a very incongruous stance, is it not?

Is my point...

People often say they want total honesty.

Until they get it.

Actually if you rtft I haven't said you should volunteer opinions. I have said that people should be more honest.

The example was given of 'do I look fat in these jeans?' I said I would tell my friend honestly and kindly.

If that friend never asked me, I wouldn't say 'Jesus your arse looks huge!'

You were speaking directly to me. I asked why you were being PA. If a friend kept saying things in way I percieve as PA I would question them in RL too.

You asked an open question, to which I answered honestly. Why ask a question if you don't want an answer, why not just give your opinion of me anyway? Or did you expect me to have to answer yes?

as I said before, I welcome you honesty. It's doesn't hurt me or bother me. Not sure why you keep insisting I have a problem with being honest

I find the 'who's right?' and the need for there to be a right/wrong in the context of this discussion really weird.

...offence the world would be better. You disagree and that's fine. You are countering my points, that's fine.

This is the bit I find really frustrating. I haven't seen anyone actually disagreeing with the idea that if people in general operated differently, things might be better. They're answering the question. 'Why don't people do this?' that lashes posited, and then responding to statements that they shouldn't behave or react in a certain way to a situation or an action, or that the people they're interacting with shouldn't.

It's why people like me are feeling very frustrated on this thread, because we feel we're not being listened to.

I also feel I am not being listened too.

I also find the whole 'who is right and wrong' odd in this context as we are different people with different opinions and lives. Different but not right or wrong

What sort of responses would make you feel listened to?

"It's an open thread. I'm just disagreeing with you; not forbidding you to participate or express an opinion.

People often say this on Mumsnet, especially when they hold a minority view. It's odd. It's an open forum. People disagreeing with you isn't akin to denying you a 'voice'..."

Unless they start reporting you because your opinion/tone 'upsets' them and/or a group of them all lay into you and try to push you off a thread/threads. It happens.

Silver, I think emoticons should help but when I use them I get accused of using PA smileys It's just a smile! Some people on MN don't seem to like them.

And for the record, I'm far more willing and able to be open and honest on an anonymous internet forum, than I ever would be in real life.

Don't you think that's cowardly?

I find it easier if people say what they mean, because I don't pick up on any other cues that they might mean something slightly different to exactly what they "say".

I guess I miss out on a lot of communication because it's not all verbal, and I have Aspergers.

I think though I understand that for NT people they aren't always comfortable with my method of communication, being direct can be seen as being "impolite" and many people are too polite or embarrassed to say exactly what they mean.

With people I am close to, I ask them to be explicit if something is important to them, and then I have to accept that everyone else around me won't be and if I am not sure, I should ask what they mean.

I guess I look at it a bit like we speak different languages and though I've learned some of their language, it's not always quite enough and I have to ask them to tell me in a different way.

Don't you think that's cowardly?

Why?

For me, I behave differently in different social contexts. Again, it depends on what your goal is.

Why do people come to MN? They are seeking a specific type of interaction - and sometimes that involves a robust discussion.

Do I behave differently with a colleague from the way I behave with my mum from the way I behave with my best friend? Yes, of course. I have different relationships with each, they are very different people, and our interactions often have different goals.

I have friends with whom I probably behave pretty similarly to the way I do on Mumsnet. I have friends who hate that style of discussion. So I modify my 'natural' behaviour when I'm with those friends, because my goal is to maintain a positive relationship with them - and that means thinking about their wants and needs and reactions, even when they don't accord with mine.

Jassy

I think that if you're "ruder" (I don't think honesty is rude, but that poster does) when you're anonymous, that's because you have no fear of consequences and that no one knows your name. To me that's cowardly - at least have the courage to admit to your opinions.

I'm not saying you have to behave the same with everyone, but don't act differently because no one knows who you are.

bumbley in my experience, that is more likely because YOU are actually being PA.

I do actually agree with the op up to a point. my mil infuriates me as if I ask her her preference between a number of options, all of which are acceptable to me, she will always say (or insist) she doesn't mind. I then choose an option, make plans based on it. often it turns out she did have a preference all along and she can be downright sulky that I didn't choose it. it drives me mad.

equally she must think everyone acts this way as if I tell her I am happy with something (a gift or a suggestion about something to do) I get the third degree because she insists I must be just saying that to be polite.

I do find it tiresome tbh and it's only a slightly more extreme version of what everyone does.