Picky guest. Rude and ill-mannered or within his rights?

[AddToBasket]

Gah. I am throwing a themed dinner party for friends from a particular interest. (A bit like a medieval feast for people from a 12th Century interest group.) The menu is complicated and of the 'Take one plucked flamingo' school of recipes. It's a massive deal and will require military-like organisation to pull off but I'm looking forward to it.

It's at my house but I have a co-host. The partner of the co-host will not eat anything on the menu. There are four options for starter, five for main course, four for pudding. My co-host tells me he eat won't eat any of them.

He's not vegetarian or allergic, he just doesn't like vegetables or anything 'complicated'. I've been asked to serve a plain chicken breast. The menu includes a roast chicken salad (offensive because of watercress) and a plain couscous.

I think it's rude. AIBU?

[LashesandLipstick]

Also why do people on here think they can say their view and if you don't agree you're being difficult? I appreciate you trying to explain, but that doesn't mean I understand or that I agree.

[SerendipityDooDah]

This thread is rapidly descending past the point of anyone's threshold of politeness and/or social norms, NT or otherwise.

[CardinalRed]

In most cultures the partaking of food with others is seen not merely as refuelling, but as a social event.
It is always polite to comment favourably about the food someone has prepared for you.
At a dinner party, it is totally normal for the host to be anxious that the guests are enjoying the food that has been planned for, shopped for, prepared and cooked. Hence watching while others are eating, asking them if the meal is alright etc. And it is equally normal good manners for the guests to recognise the considerable effort and expense the host has gone to and to compliment them on the meal.
This is one of the many rituals we have around food. You do not need to agree with it, but it undeniably exists and those who do not accept it and make a minimum effort to be polite and appreciative are generally perceived to be rude.
You might not agree with the social custom of queuing. But if you try to flout this custom and just barge in - people will get pissed off with you.
Our actions do impact on others. Treating a meal somebody has taken the time and trouble to prepare for you as merely "fuel" is only thinking of your personal attitude and ignoring what the other person has done for you. It's selfish and ignorant.

[Gruntfuttock]

Fantastic post, CardinalRed. I hope Lashes reads it and finally understands, as it is so articulate.

[LashesandLipstick]

Cardinal that explains SOME of the behaviour. I get wanting to make sure people like the food, I would do it in a different, less off putting way, but that's me. If complimenting the meal is the norm, what purpose does it serve? As you have no way of knowing whether they did like the food or they're just being nice. Doesn't that remove the point?

With queueing, that makes sense. If everyone crowded round, things would take longer. Therefore a queue is faster. I understand that. The problem I'm having is these dinner rules seem illogical and totally made up. I guess to you guys they seem really normal but to me they're very alien. But I can do alien if it makes sense.

[oddfodd]

Cardinal - thank you.

And also for Lashes benefit - a lot of that goes for meals out with other people. Even though someone we don't know has made the food, I'm interested in what other people have ordered - is it tasty? Did they make a better/worse choice than me? I sometimes go to restaurants (Eastern/Spanish) where we order a whole host of different dishes for sharing. That sharing of the food is a really big part of the social occasion.

I hope that goes some way to explaining why I would feel uncomfortable going out to a restaurant where I couldn't eat and why I think other people would feel uncomfortable that I'm not eating.

And finally, just to reiterate, my son eats a very limited diet. It is very hard when we eat at restaurants and at other people's houses. So I really do 'get' it.

[Tuskerfull]

If complimenting the meal is the norm, what purpose does it serve?

It rewards the host for the effort they've gone to to make a nice meal for their guests.

As you have no way of knowing whether they did like the food or they're just being nice

It doesn't really matter. The purpose is to thank the host for their effort, not to give honest feedback about the food. It doesn't really matter if the food is good or bad, as a guest you are grateful someone has cooked for you and want to thank them.

[LashesandLipstick]

Oddfodd the sharing thing is interesting - my family are horrified by food sharing in restaurants usually, so I've always grown up thinking it's weird. But I've been out with friends who do it, and who think my absolute repulsion to anyone else touching my food (or their food touching mine) is weird. I mentioned earlier I grew up in a family where having ASD is more common than not having it, and I think that may have affected my experiences. For example when I go out with my parents it's usually the same restaurant, the same dishes, etc. no food sharing, no food watching, or even comments on the food other than "the foods nice".

I wonder if that seems as "weird" to others as these food rules seem to me! I am genuinely not trying to be awkward either as some people think

[LashesandLipstick]

Tuskerfull don't you think that gives a bad precedent? The person might think you love chicken when you only tolerated it, and so make it for you every time!

I'm not saying tell the host you don't like their food but compliments should be reserved for genuine situations imo

[PHANTOMnamechanger]

The person might think you love chicken when you only tolerated it, and so make it for you every time!

if you can 'tolerate it', as opposed to it actually making you ill or being against your religion or something, then you can go on tolerating it - it does you no harm and your host feels their efforts are appreciated. because that is the polite thing to do. Or if the day comes when you are invited again and you really think, I don't want to go and eat X's chicken dish again, then you politely decline the invitation, saying you have something else on. Or you say 'no it's my turn, you must come to me'. You get to see the friend, you get to eat what you want and friend is not offended or snubbed.

[Tuskerfull]

Realistically, you would have been asked before you went if there were any foods that you couldn't eat or really didn't like. If chicken wasn't on your list then you clearly don't dislike it that much, so you suck it up and eat it. In that situation someone has spent hours of their life planning, buying and preparing a meal for you and their comfort and happiness is more important than yours - within reason. It wouldn't be more important than your health if you had a chicken allergy, but is is more important than you having only lukewarm feelings towards chicken.

[PHANTOMnamechanger]

compliments should be reserved for genuine situations imo

but we are back to whether it is ok to tell a half truth, or to purposely lie to save hurting someones feelings. Not everything is black and white.

eg you might see a friend wearing a dress you think is really unflattering - but you would not say 'jees what an awful dress, where the hell did you find that thing' but you might say 'hi your hair looks lovely tonight' instead. we are back to the does my bum look big in this scenario. You do not always have to be blatantly honest. It is sometimes better not to be. If the friend actually asks you 'do you like my new dress' you can bluff your way round it by saying how well it goes with their eye colour or something.

[CardinalRed]

Complimenting the food shows your host you appreciate the time, effort and money they've spent on you.not doing this gives the impression you don't care about anyone except yourself.

Queuing is not about being efficient - far from it! In the UK queuing is about acknowledging other people that are there before you and not trying to say your needs are greater/more important etc by flouting the culturally accepted norm and pushing in front.

Both of these conventions involve considering others before yourself.

[LashesandLipstick]

Phantom wouldn't you rather your guests actually enjoyed the food rather than tolerated it? Or that they came rather than refusing to come?

Why would I lie to them about a dress? I wouldn't lie to my friends. How can they trust me?

Cardinal so why not compliment that? "You've put a lot of effort in, thank you for inviting me".

That's not true, if it were self aervics and basket tills wouldn't exist. Surely it's to get it done as quickly as possible

[Tuskerfull]

Why would you want to tell your friends "you look bad"? You can always find something positive to say and that is preferable, always, to hurting a friend's feelings.

Your "you've put a lot of effort in, thank you for inviting me" is a perfect response. See, you're good at this social-niceties thing

[LashesandLipstick]

Tuskerfull because they've asked. You don't have to say "you look bad!" But if they ask if I like a dress and I don't, I'll say "to be honest that's not my style, I really prefer these types of dresses on you, I think they flatter you more". That's hardly insulting is it!

Thanks :) I get saying THAT, I just don't get saying "oooh this food is great!" If you genuinely don't think it is

[PHANTOMnamechanger]

Phantom wouldn't you rather your guests actually enjoyed the food rather than tolerated it?

yes, of course, but I also don't repeatedly cook the same meal every single time that I have guests (well, except those who come on xmas day!) just in case they were just being polite with their compliments (I think that is part of being a good host). And also because i like cooking and eating a wide range of foods myself, and having friends over is an excuse to try something new/special.

as for the dress, well if i was helping a friend shop for a dress i would be more honest when they ask what do you think, i might try to steer them towards something else. but if they just turn up at an event in a new outfit, of course you don't just tell them they look awful!

[PHANTOMnamechanger]

"to be honest that's not my style, I really prefer these types of dresses on you, I think they flatter you more". That's hardly insulting is it!


well i think that is actually rude and hurtful, what a great start to a friends evening out, when they are feeling good in their new frock!! telling them they cant even dress themselves right. Just saying 'its not my style' is adequate. Truth without hurt.

if you are out shopping together, as I said, you could still be more tactful and say.....hmm, not sure, how about trying the longer one/the same one in green etc etc - then be gushing about that one instead

[QuintShhhhhh]

The problem I'm having is these dinner rules seem illogical and totally made up. I guess to you guys they seem really normal but to me they're very alien. But I can do alien if it makes sense.

Same with grammar, and learning a language. If you were to learn Spanish, for example, you just need to accept that these are the rules, and that is how Spanish is spoken. You cant just think "hey, this does not make sense to me so I will say it differently". You cant just disagree with masculine, neutral and feminine and refuse to employ it just because it does not make sense to you....

[QuintShhhhhh]

"to be honest that's not my style, I really prefer these types of dresses on you, I think they flatter you more"

An old family friend, a psychiatrist, used to make compliments such as

"Oh Laura you look smashing tonight, but you are hardly at your best" or

"Fabulous food darling, but I know you can make better than this!"

• Just to go out on a tangent....

[Gruntfuttock]

QuintShhhhhh I find it quite fascinating that a psychiatrist would say such things. I hope you challenged him or her about it. I'd love to hear his/her explanation as to why these comments were deemed either appropriate or kind.

[CardinalRed]

Lashes, a considerate person would not dream of using the wording "I appreciate the effort" because there is a huge great BUT hanging there in the air. It is not actually a compliment and if anything is worse than not saying anything at all.

These situations call for tact, understanding and empathy for the other person, puting them first and yourself last. It doesn't actually matter if you hated the meal or think your friend looks like she's been pulled through a hedge backwards because obviously you cannot say that because it is hurtful. And totally inconsiderate.

The perfect examples of what not say are given by the psychologist above. That person knows how to be rude dressed up in a superficial veneer of politeness.

Very few peopl actually come out and say what they are thinking because the plain, unvarnished truth is hurtful. That is why we apply filters.

Again, it is not about saying what you think or feel but simply putting the other person before yourself. I have an extreme phobia about dried fruit. But I've managed to choke down a piece of fruit cake because the precise situation meant it was impossible to refuse it without causing offense

[LauraMipsum]

Ha, AddToBasket, I think I may know him. If he is the same Mr Chicken Breast that I know, then he doesn't have sensory problems or ASD, he is just a PITA.

My Mr Chicken Breast is the only person I know who has ever managed to be too fussy for a McDonalds (they put a lettuce leaf in his plain chicken burger by mistake and he couldn't possibly just have taken it out, he had to go back and stand in a busy queue holding it as though he'd just found a rat in there and wait while they made him a new one, which made a group of about 12 of us late for a show we'd booked.)

Of course they could be different people, there may well be a whole flock of Mr Chicken Breasts.

[LashesandLipstick]

Cardinal we totally disagree on that - I don't see it as hurtful at all, or insulting. Someone earlier said that what I said about the meal was perfectly fine, so it seems subjective

[CardinalRed]

You have put a lot of effort in.
What does that statement say! It doesn't tell the host whether or not the effort has been successful, or if it is appreciated. It's not a compliment to the host, it is merely an acknowledgement of their "effort", and as such gives a message that you didn't enjoy what ever was offered.

Think of it this way. Couple lying in bed after sex:
Person A: how was it for you?
Person B:I appreciate the effort you made.
Terrible response, isn't it?

There's a time and a place for critiquing thinGs. At a dinner party the polite response is to enthuse about the good food your host has prepared and to bat away modesty on their part. That's how you demonstrate that you appreciate the effort they have made - by actively praising the results of their hard work.