to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

I'm not sure how viable it is to call their interpretations of jihad in the Koran wrong. All you can say is that you disagree with them. That's part of the problem of following books which are thousands of years old.

Keepitsimple - having read this thread I joined the Muslims against isis fb page yesterday. On that page there is lots of evidence from islamic sources clarifying that's isis are not islamic, using islamic text and literary evidence. In fact there are hundreds of groups across the world on fb which are similar.

I think all the posters on this and other threads calling for more Muslim outrage are the ones only looking at mainstream media for the outrage. There is Muslim outrage everywhere if you care to look.

I have Muslim friends and colleagues who are horrified. I do feel Muslims are being singled out by people (including those on this thread). Why were e there not hebdo-esque marches after the Charleston shootings? Why were white supremacists not asked to march. I'm white myself and it's clear that there is always always a more global outpouring of sympathy for white western victims of any crime. And if the perpetrators are white there is always less collective culpability.

Most Muslims are non political, non activist. Even if one million of then March posters here will complain about the not being enough. If you want outrage go find it, it's all there. But you won't find it reading the daily mail.

I agree that we should not refer to them as isis. Strip this vile group of the identity they have usurped. And let's focus on the acts of unity in Tunisia where the bravery of Muslims saved lives instead of focusing on the depravity of these lunatics.

It is quite possible that many Muslims grew up in environments where questioning their belief was forbidden; blasphemous, and punished severely. To leave Islam is to be subject to the death penalty. It is very hard when brought up like this to throw off the shackles and examine Islam as just another religion, in a mature and sceptical manner. And of course once criticism is allowed, the naked emperor is revealed :)

This is a struggle for them (and us all). I have respect for those struggling and especially for brave muslim apostates. They have fought oppression is ways I never have.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Heretic: Why Islam Needs a Reformation Now" is very good.

Why were e there not hebdo-esque marches after the Charleston shootings?

Because there had not been massive demonstrations calling for the shooting of Black methodists, of which the actual shooting were just the final culmination. There is no reason to believe the shootings were supported by large numbers of people.

There had been extensive and popular demonstrations in this country, and worldwide, calling for the death of cartoonists. The shootings were just what those large demonstration were demanding.

Why is it that the Muslim community can always get a demonstration together with placards demanding death to those that insult Islam, but never anything opposing that position?

www.thenational.ae/world/africa/demonstrations-in-niger-continue-over-charlie-hebo-cartoon

Gem - because it isn't the Muslim community who march in the marches demanding death. I have been told that these marches are led by the minority extremists who most Muslims consider unislamic and at the marches there are usually no more than 50 people there.

I'm sure you'll use your Google search powers now to find evidence suggesting otherwise. Off you go....

"There is no reason to believe the shootings were supported by large numbers of people."

Gemauve - of course there is masses of evidence and support for the Charleston shootings. Have you read the white supremacist literature online? Gave you lived in pays off America that support supremacy? Did you know that 7 black churches have been Burnt down in the Charleston area in recent weeks to protest the arrest of the shooter?

Anyone can Google up facts to support their opinion.

cleanmachine: "because it isn't the Muslim community who march in the marches demanding death. I have been told that these marches are led by the minority extremists who most Muslims consider unislamic and at the marches there are usually no more than 50 people there."

Who told you that, out of interest?

I'm old enough to remember the Salman Rushdie affair and it was quite clear that a lot of ordinary Muslims were sympathetic to the fatwa. And if you look at things like the protests over the Danish cartoons, again there was a strong degree of popular support among Muslims.

I'm not suggesting that most ordinary Muslims in this country support what happened in Tunisia, by the way, or support ISIS. But I think it's fair to suggest they don't all subscribe to liberal notions about free speech.

Xenu that does sound interesting and I agree Islam needs reformation in the way or obviously totally differently to Christianity in the 16 century.

It must be dreadful if you do want to leave Islam or turn to another religion and you are not allowed to scrutinise Islam

at the marches there are usually no more than 50 people there.

Yeah, that's right. The Rushdie marches were only fifty people. Of course.

baking: " of course there is masses of evidence and support for the Charleston shootings."

Yes, among white supremacist racists. But it's not surprising that an extremist political movement based on hatred of black people is going to support the murder of black people, is it? A political movement is a very different thing from a religious affiliation.

You know I was referring to recent marches not ones from the 1980's. No Google link this time gem?

Hack - if you don't understand that isis are essentially a political movement and entity then you need to go do some research.

Double standards again. White terrorists are political, brown terrorists are Islamic.

I agree with many if the points on this thread. Both for and against. What I won't agree with is posters who cannot see themselves adopting different standards to different forms of terror.

You know I was referring to recent marches not ones from the 1980's

So what? Are you saying things have got better?

I have been told that these marches are led by the minority extremists who most Muslims consider unislamic and at the marches there are usually no more than 50 people there

no need to google, just go to the Guardian website.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/08/british-muslims-london-protest-against-muhammad-cartoon-charlie-hebdo

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11398967/Huge-crowd-of-Muslim-protesters-picket-Downing-Street-to-protest-at-Charlie-Hebdo-cartoons.html

Oh, that's just 50 people, justanother. You can see it from the picture.

cleanmachine, please can you remind us what the first i in ISIS stands for ?

Domino - even David Cameron has agreed that they shouldn't be called isis precisely because they don't represent Islam. Why do you insist otherwise? I agree with global leaders, ordinary Muslims and posters on this thread who have stated that it is better to call then what they are - a death cult. Obviously there will be those with narrow minds who will absolutely refuse to stop conflating Islam and isis despite evidence to the contrary preserved by Muslims on this thread, other online forums and in real life.

Also I will leave this thread now as I can see that the gang mentality towards any poster who wants to promote unity as per the thread title is in full force.

Hope everyone gets to enjoy this lovely sunny day.

I saw a really interesting post on fb about Isis encountering a christian and letting him go, not sure if it was true.

It seems David Cameron has called on muslim communities to report anyone they suspect of becoming radicalised or who's known to be keen on extremist websites, etc; he emphasized the importance of everyone working together on this, which is surely unarguable

I just worry about the howls of outrage when Eric Pickles suggested much the same thing, and wonder if things will be different this time ...

Do posters on this thread demanding that all UK Muslims drop everything and join in a collective condemnation of isis realise that it is Muslims who are leading the battle on the ground against isis in the middle east? .do you realise that it is ordinary Muslim families who internationally are part of the ideological warfare against isis by ensuring that their youngsters are not indoctrinated and the death cult does not succeed in appropriating their religion?

The evidence of Muslims leading the attack against isis are everywhere as long s you are prepared to look. The absolute lowest and most hypocritical form of condemnation is from westerners demanding condemnation from innocent people, which in itself breeds hate and alienation (isis employ similar tactics). We must all join forces if we are to combat terrorism. The west cannot lay the blame for isis at the feet of all Muslims worldwide. This is exactly what isis want.

We created the power vacuum in the region by invading Iraq, bombing Libya, supporting and funding the inception of isis, and now we want Muslim mnetters and other ordinary folk to eradicate them. If the combined western powers can't do that how do you think a March will do that? Muslims have been denouncing isis since their inception. Go ask the kurdish/turkish/iraqi fighters on the ground. Go ask ask the Muslim countries in the region who are struggling to core with the destabilisation of the region.

what is daesh?

On that page there is lots of evidence from islamic sources clarifying that's isis are not islamic, using islamic text and literary evidence. In fact there are hundreds of groups across the world on fb which are similar.

and there is plenty in the koran to support IS. that's part of the problem. it's just plain wishful thinking to think the koran is all love and fun. so who's right?

I have Muslim friends and colleagues who are horrified. I do feel Muslims are being singled out by people (including those on this thread). Why were e there not hebdo-esque marches after the Charleston shootings? Why were white supremacists not asked to march. I'm white myself and it's clear that there is always always a more global outpouring of sympathy for white western victims of any crime. And if the perpetrators are white there is always less collective culpability.

I don't doubt many muslims are horrified. I also agree that there is more outrage when victims are white, but that's a separate problem. I don't really understand your point about white supremacists. Nobody is asking them to march because they are probably on the side of the shooter. They agree with what's happened.

The reason that muslims in general are asked to speak up about IS and extremists is that moderates and extremists share one crucial thing; islam (and it's associated texts). it's that shared ideology that one group is using to justify terrible violence. Both groups to some extent believe that islam and the koran are in some way very special books, and this belief and advocating it is entirely voluntary. Thus, it seems to me, moderate muslims (many of whom claim the koran is the greatest book, muhammed is the perfect example of how to lead ones life etc etc) need to somehow explain or find a narrative on why the violent bits of the koran and hadith (which are certainly there. you just need to read it) should be ignored.

The other problem is that even mainstream muslims support some deeply troubling ideas. Various polls suggest this.

I agree that we should not refer to them as isis. Strip this vile group of the identity they have usurped.

are you saying that they are giving in implausible interpretation of islam? that they are completely out in space with how they are interpreting it?

Just watched Dan cruikshanks programme on bbc 4 about destruction of precious archaeological sites in the Middle East. We've all heard it but to see it made me feel physically sick. And desparately worried. The extremists have a clear agenda but I'm not sure what can be done. As one interviewee said - intervention is like putting ones hand in the magi mix. All we can do is hope.