to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

Communism wasn't going to Japan, though. Europe, OK. If the US had let West Germany go to the dogs, the Russians would have gladly taken it over, that's true.

But, America controlled the government of Japan and West Germany, not Britain, Libya or Iraq. Maybe that's why the funds weren't spent wisely. I'm not sure what money went to Libya. But, huge US investment has been squandered on the Iraqi Army, which has gone straight into the pockets of corrupt officials. But, did no one in the Pentagon wonder what would happen if they just rocked up in Iraq giving out huge wads of cash?

I'm as Euston-ite liberal interventionist as they come, and I'd be relaxed about America as a force for good, possibly with UN oversight, running countries in the absence of stable government. I keep quiet about that at Labour Party meetings, I can assure you :-)

America has historically been the reason for all of South America's problems. The US has foreign policy issues.

Can we mention America here. All of the above being widely practised by Christians (and indeed non-Christians) there.

circumcision (on boys) is widely practiced there, but it's a completely different ball of wax, isn't it? The US supreme court just made gay marriage legal, whereas some countries have the death penalty for gays (some are christian countries).

it's just muddling the issue to throw america in here. Nowhere in america will you find broad support for punishing those who leave christianity.

Null your posts are inciteful and untrue. Do you know any Muslims in real life? Ask the ones I know have condemned the attacks. Many Muslims have posted on threads in recent days condemning. There has been condemnation from leading islamic scholars (for some reason the daily mail choose not to report on these), mnetters who are Muslim have posted about their horror. Bringing them and us language into this is dangerous and divisive.

Finally, I'm pretty sure having read the views on this thread that if Muslims started a ride with us campaign here they'd be attacked for trivialising the matter, subject to ridicule and attacks and no one would report on it anyway or ride with them. No wonder Muslim mnetters are few on this thread, reading some of the comments here is like reading the edl Facebook page.

What have I written that's untrue bakingnovice?

And yes I do know a few Muslims, who are lovely. I had a long chat with one of them yesterday, as it happens, as our children are friends.

She is absolutely lovely, but very shy and quiet, and to be absolutely honest I don't dare ask her why she doesn't condemn the attacks (which neither of us raised) as I don't want her to feel uncomfortable. I am sure she wouldn't condone them, but I wish she and others would say so, publicly.

Heartwarming news about the proposed march on 26 July, alteredimages ... like so many, I believe it's now vital for ordinary, decent people to be clearly seen condemning the terrorists who claim to act on behalf of Islam and the hatred and division encouraged by extremists

Let's also hope it's very well attended, otherwise I worry about immediate comparisons with the numbers who demonstrated about Charlie Hebdo, the Danish cartoons and so on

Why should your neighbour condemn the attacks? My neighbour is Muslim. We've had chats this weekend. We didn't discuss the massacre. I didn't ask her for condemnation and apologies just as she didn't expect it from me when the Charleston shoring occurred or when the nazi guy killed the Asian guy in a two supermarket.

Aren't you expecting a lot from ordinary Muslim mum's to make sure they mention to every person they speak to that they condemn the attacks? What gives you the right to expect condemnation from ordinary people just trying to live their lives, put food on the tables and raise their kids?

The double standards are astounding. Do you apologise for the Iraq war (which or government started whilst acting on our behalf) before any conversation you have with anyone? I don't.

Why should she say anything though? I don't notice legions of white people apologising for the Charleston shooter, and he had some clear white supremacist views.

bakingnovice - come on now!I haven't read any 'inciteful' posts on here. I think there's a lot of very interesting points of view on this thread. Nothing wrong with robust debating either - these discussions need to be had.

A ride with us campaign sounds a good idea to me

Yes of course America is different.

They just have prospective respected politicians going on national television unchallenged saying that Birmingham is a no go Islamic area.

Which obviously helps matters.

The USA might not have 'broad support for punishing those who leave Christianity', but someone who wanted to convert to Islam in parts of the USA would probably seriously consider moving because they wouldn't exactly feel welcome or safe in certain communities.

But thank you for illustrating my point so well about double standards and only seeing the side of the problem that we want to see.

Inkanta This:

"Until more Muslims stand up to say 'THIS is what I believe', and 'I reject what is being done in my name' how can they be surprised at the spread of Islamophobia?

Also, I think a little less complaining that the West is to blame would go down well, too."

I find this inciteful. If you don't then good for you. It's almost saying that unless ALL Muslims stand up and condemn then they should expect Islamophobia. And even if they do organise a really or vigil or march it so won't be enough for you lot will it?

I'm not asking for an apology nor do I expect her or any of the other Muslims I know locally to bring it up. Don't attribute things to me that I did not say and don't feel!

I'm just saying I wish British Muslims would speak up to say this is not our Islam.

News of next month's march is excellent and I look forward to it and hope those brave enough to march will be able to do so without fear of attack from extremists. A massive step in the right direction.

Null you "do expect them to bring it up" as you've said yourself!

On the one hand you say you're not expecting then to but then you say " but I wish she and others would say so, publicly."

Make up your mind please. I'm enjoying the debate but agree that some of your posts have been inciteful. Your poor friend, trying to discuss everyday life with you whilst you are busy mentally condemning her for not condemning an attack by a group that she does not align herself to or support. Oh but we don't know that do we, but she dated to not tell you exactly what her political and moral and religious objections to isis are.

baingnovice - No it's not!

People basically are looking for reassurance from those who know about Islam and understand the faith.

I think a figurehead would be useful as well.

Challenge away if you like, I don't feel like it at the moment....

Interesting choice of phrase, bakingnovice ... I don't recall anyone on this thread referring to muslim folk as "you lot" and it would have been quite rightly deleted if they had. Maybe it's worth remembering that double standards work both way?

I also can't help noticing the repeated assertions that muslims are being asked "to apologise" for various things. I'd ask for links to any such request, but can't help feeling it would get the same response as when posters have been invited to point to alleged racist posts ...

In other words, no response at all

When I posted a FB page 'Muslims against ISIS' a few pages back, I got told it's not good enough because it only had 13,000 people on there instead of 4 million. What can you say to that? Nothing Muslims do is good enough. That march won't be good enough either.

Numerous people have posted that Muslims have spoken out and have just been ignored.

If anyone is looking for mass condemnation from those pesky Muslims then there are quite a few Muslims against isis Facebook pages. My Muslim friend directed me to it. I know already that a mealy 13000 fb members will not appear some of the posters on here though.

When I mentioned apologies I mentioned it in the context of asking all Muslims to condemn suggests that they are in some way culpable for the actions of terrorists are. And some of them are, I agree. But ordinary Muslim friends, neighbours and colleagues should not be automatically expected to condemn or comment every time they engage with a non Muslim. If you have real concerns about neighbours or friends views then just ask them. Null said she didn't ask as she didn't want to offend, but she can make statements about the inevitable 'spread of Islamophobia?'. Surely that is the point of this thread. To agree that we should challenge Islamophobia and all other forms of intolerance and bigotry.

I'm done with this thread now. It's like going round in a big circle. It has been an interesting debate.

Cross posted with pyjamas!

Hey babbas I don't know where you got the bit about me 'mentally condemning* my friend from! We were discussing our children and I really like this woman - I don't condemn her for anything!

I don't want to get into a tit for tat but I do believe the Muslim community here should speak up. Not all of them, not during every conversation with mums in the street, but I think it would be nice to hear from a pretty large community that they reject what is being done in their name.

A march is exactly the sort of thing I think has been lacking. It is great news that one is planned and I hope it gets lots of publicity and is well-attended.

I want people in our country to live together in peace. Don't we all?

Null yes we do. Let's all try and appreciate the effort and sentiment instead of criticising the number of attendees ofthe march. Any condemnation is good. I wish you a good day, peace and love to all.

RedToothBrush you don't think religious lunacy in the USA gets challenged ??

We'll have to see what David Cameron is suggesting. He seems to be talking about good Muslims and bad Muslims, from his own presumably vague Anglican point of view. Unless he gets talked into some form of sensibility, there will start to be a non Muslim division of Muslims into these two groups, even if, at first, it's only Cameron doing the judging. I'm not sure how he's going to manage this. But, he seems to be cracking on with it, regardless.