to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

all muslims must always obey the laws of the land in which they are living except only if the law goes against a clear rule (not a preference) in islam and no workaround can be found

So let me see if I've got this right ... are you really saying that, if it comes to it, the implications of a muslim's choice of religion stands above the law?

That's the whole problem, isn't it?

So Muslims are 'above the law' so to speak?

fanjo some of them are. However the majority of British women aren't Muslim. We've grown up with the idea that we should treat people equally, at least in casual social situations, and certainly in a professional situation.
You don't ignore people based on whether they have a penis or vagina.

Aermingers Sun 28-Jun-15 01:35:34

Your post describes what I feel about it. Its not comparable at all.

Koala of course its not right to hassle anyone in the street.
At the same time, in the name of Islam people are being slaughtered and shot dead as direct teachings from the Koran.

I think I would have to renounce my faith in protest.

I also think there is something distasteful in this post somehow.

Yes as I said no one should be hassled in the street but some one was on holiday and got shot, taking their DH away to recover from heart surgery. She was shot and slaughtered on a beach, relaxing, In the name of Islam. A young boy has just lost three family members in moments, in the name of Islam.

People praying in a mosque have been shot dead.

I wish this thread title had been, "we are all responsible for tackling the extremist elements within our country muslim or non muslim".

So Muslims are 'above the law' so to speak?

They are. For example, demanding, and offering rewards for, the murder of British citizens is a crime for everyone else, but when British Muslims demanded, en masse, the murder of Salman Rushdie there wasn't a single arrest.

The excuses offered by British Muslims as to why they used to think murdering their fellow citizens was OK but they've changed their minds now are lies amusing.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/jun/19/notsurprisinglytheawarding

"So on February 14 1989, when the Iranian Islamic leader, Imam Khomeini delivered his fatwa calling for Salman Rushdie's death, I was truly elated. It was a very welcome reminder that British Muslims did not have to regard themselves just as a small, vulnerable minority; they were part of a truly global and powerful movement. If we were not treated with respect then we were capable of forcing others to respect us."

And that's the heart of it. British Muslims wanted "respect", and if that involved violence, they were "elated" by the idea of murder.

Of course, the author of that piece claims to have grown up. "Today I can certainly better appreciate the concerns and fear generated by the images of book-burning in Bradford and the calls for the author to be killed." Perhaps if you were as clever as you think you are, you'd have realised that before you called for murder, yes? That's why I don't believe a word of it when British Muslims claims to object to the Charlie Hebdo killings: why the sudden horror when the precise thing they demanded - the murder of people who offend them - happens? It's rank hypocrisy to demand people be murdered, then pretend to be shocked and pretend to disapprove when people are murdered.

Can I ask everyone to search 5Pillars on Facebook and read some of the comments left on posts by British muslims .
I'm not even shocked to be honest

Just out of interest, what bits of the koran are ISIS specifically disobeying? I had the impression that a literal interpretation of the koran would produce something exactly like ISIS and that it is "moderate" Muslims who are actually more like infidels, in not following koranic scripture exactly as it is worded.

For those who have no social contact with UK Muslims, videos of such horrible demonstrations in the media probably form their impression.
Peace marches would make a difference in public attitudes, because it would show a positive side (bigots would remain bigots, but most people would be fair)

I meet Muslims mostly at work and gym, very friendly in all cases, but we all belong to special subgroups: STEM grads and gym rats
They keep the no alcohol or pork rules and observe Ramadan (even at the gym); we make sensible adjustments for this, without the slightest problem.
I'm an atheist, but none of this offends my (lack of) beliefs in the slightest; no reason to.

However, they all dress in Western fashion (men & women in short sleeves, no headscarves) and ignore the physical contact rules described by pp, so daily interaction is unaffected.
That is very important: a niqab would be offensive to me both as a feminist and also as someone with a serious hearing disability - I need to see faces and body language, to work or socialise properly.

They are graduates from countries like Morocco, Turkey, Egypt so imo there are great cultural / educational / national differences in how Muslims apply their religion.

E.g. In boxing class (men & women), the Muslim trainer has no problem grabbing my arms or torso to correct my moves and we are both just in (very sweaty !) singlet and shorts. He is very motivating and supportive; his classes are brilliant and I look forward to them all week.
Similarly, when I spar with him or the Muslim trainee, there is never an issue even when we do that abs exercise with the medicine ball, lying on the floor with our legs wrapped around each other. Many white European would be uncomfortable with that degree of sweaty closeness.
Our class has a lovely cameraderie.

My work and gym experiences illustrate for me what a huge range "Muslim" encompasses and how the degree of adapting socially to the host country culture determines how we all get on together.

Lol

CNN confuses butt plug and dildo banner for isis flag at pride

This is an interesting thread. However no one has mentioned yet that the acts carried out by these terrorists represent 0.0001 % of the global Muslim population. Surely if Islam propagated violence then why aren't the other 99.999 % committing violent acts?

I'm from a Jewish background and understand isis and is associated abhorrent terrorism to be very much a political rather than a religious movement. Their biggest victim group are Muslims, they emerged following a power vacuum created when the west created a destabilised region (beginning with invading Iraq without a shred of evidence to do so legally).

The killings of tourists on the beach was horrific, but asking all Muslims to stand up and demonstrate and apologise is quite unfair. Just as ridiculous as asking all Jews to stand up and apologise for the other killings on a beach last year when 4 children playing football on a beach were killed by Israel.

Islamaphobia is on the rise, anti semitic sentiment is on the rise. We all need to stop and think hard before we attack entire groups of people for the actions of a few maniacal power crazy assholes. It's time we all stood together in peace.

Bigchoc I totally agree. Before I met my dh the only Muslims I knew were the ones I saw on tv burning the Satanic verses so I also held quite a negative view.
I would really like to see Muslims lead some kind of "Not in my name" march. It's really high time. At least 15 British citizens have been killed. Perhaps one of the high profile rent a gob Muslims who keep popping up on the tv could use their public to do some good.

I would really like to see Muslims lead some kind of "Not in my name" march. It's really high time.

It's often said that moderate Muslims are worried about speaking out because of a fear of ostracism within their own community. Why would you mind being ostracised by a tiny minority whom you despise anyway? Ah, I see...

I wonder why my question about my male Muslim neighbour refusing to acknowledge me, refusing to return my "good morning" greeting, or even a nod, has been turned into a discussion of SHAKING HANDS?

How is it that the common courtesies of the land should be put aside, and be replaced by rudeness to women, just because of a religious choice?

Why is it that Islam does not make allowances for their faithful to move into another culture and another land and behave with a courteous and respectful manner to the people who live there?

I have travelled in Dubai, Jordan, Egypt and Morocco. When there I try my best to behave "in modest ways", I dont seek out eyecontact with men, I dont touch anybody, I let my husband do the talking. I wear long linen trousers, long sleeved shirts, and I wear a scarf draped losely around my head to cover my hair. (And we dont go to such places to sunbathe, but to explore the culture, architecture, markets, ancient sites) We have had some fantastic experiences, been met with such warmth and friendliness.
We were on the ferry between Jordan and Egypt where a man suddenly started taking pictures of me, and an elderly man (looking very distinguished and orthodox) stood up for me and scolded the man with the camera. I have had my bottom pinched, and stones thrown at me, but there will always be one or two idiots where ever you go. I have also had an elderly man move heaven and earth to source some toilet paper for me (without me even asking) when I had to use public toilets in a souk. In majority people are nice, friendly and with good hearts, wherever you go on this planet.

Extremism (along with racism and prejudice is hurting everybody), regardless of the "religion" or belief they claim to act on behalf of, and regardless of the recipient. It prevents us all from living together in harmony, learning from eachother and just enjoying our lives.
It is causing friction and mistrust, and that means they have won a pretty big victory. If their actions causes non-Muslims to fear, hate or be suspicious of muslims, the end result could be that normal kind muslims are caught up in acts towards non-muslims through provocation, and they have won.

Going back to my earlier point, all we can do is small acts of kindness, understanding, towards eachother, in our local communities. Dont let the extremists come between us.

While I am not going to insist to shake my Muslim neighours hand or invite him for a stroll in the park with me, he could perhaps nod at me in the morning? Show me that he does not despise me for being a female, that he does not despise me for being non-Muslim? It is possible to be respectful and keep a distance, while at the same time be polite.

Well said Quint. Muslims living in the UK must, in my view, understand and practice basic local etiquette. Not doing so only increases the impression that they don't wish to integrate into UK society.

Same applies to niqabs tho I realise that's off topic.

Quint I would regard your neighbour as very rude.
My interactions with lovely friendly Muslim colleagues and fellow gym rats shows me that many Muslims can interact socially without offense to either party.
There seems a large element of personal choice in whether to adapt to European social norms.

It's my understanding that a march is being organised after ramadan by mosques and other groups

There have also been huge marches in Tunis and Kuwait against the terrorists. This was not only an attack against tourists but against the Muslims of Tunisia and their livelihoods. The Tunisian gunman was finally killed by a Tunisian laborer and policeman. Please don't let the bigots and frothing mnetters turn this into yet another them and us campaign.

Isis are the biggest that to Muslims and Islam more than they are to anyone else. I have Muslim friends who despise everything isis represent. Like the sunni and shia Muslims in Kuwait we must unite in the face of these terrorists and that includes challenging all forms of Islamaphobia. Their agenda is to alienate and isolate Muslims from the mainstream and then to recruit them.

Just want to ask something that's puzzling me. It's about the Muslim man who won't acknowledge or greet a female neighbour.

How would someone like that function in the workplace? Surely if you go out to work you don't have any choice but to talk to female colleagues? Unless you are in some bizarre all-male workplace. Even then, when you went to the shops or the library or post office or whatever you'd have to have some contact with women. How does it work?

How would someone like that function in the workplace?

Sometimes very badly, sadly. I used to organise training days, and had the unfortunate experience of a male muslim attendee demanding the course leader be replaced because being instructed by a female offended him; he further insisted we were at fault for not foreseeing this and making more suitable arrangements

Did I blame every other muslim for this? No, of course not ... but I recall being shocked when told later by a female attendee that she'd felt very uncomfortable, but couldn't possibly have said anything as her "defiance" of a muslim man would have got back to her community and caused her endless problems

The killings of tourists on the beach was horrific, but asking all Muslims to stand up and demonstrate and apologise is quite unfair. Just as ridiculous as asking all Jews to stand up and apologise for the other killings on a beach last year when 4 children playing football on a beach were killed by Israel.

it depends though. The groups you mention have something in common (jews and israel, and ordinary muslims and muslim terrorists). A question to ask is whether the common thread (in the latter case islam, the koran, hadith) has something to do with the violence.

clearly if a muslim robs a liquor store that has absolutely nothing to do with islam (while i haven't read the koran, my guess is nowhere does it say rob a liquor store). But what if a muslim supports death for apostasy? Or, making the link more tenuous, assert the koran is the perfect word of God, but is silent on punishment for apostasy?

the apostasy thing is the most difficult to understand.

a male muslim attendee demanding the course leader be replaced because being instructed by a female offended him

He was, according to the Muslim apologists on this thread, doing this to be polite. He wasn't being a complete arse, obviously. He was doing this because his religion makes him someone who picks up rubbish and help old ladies across the road. He wasn't being an arrogant misogynist, of course.

puzzled was the course leader changed?

Puzzled - I think society has gone far too far in making allowances for religions (Islam and others) and sincerely hope that the corse leader wasn't changed.

If a choice you make means you need special provisions, e.g can't interact with a woman this is your issue to sort out and should limit only yourself nobody else.

I would love a much more secular society