to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

Gemauve, your views are a little unusual I think (I certainly hope so?). Not shaking hands=unclean??? Who would be the unclean one then, the muslim male i dont shake hands with? Me? You??? What a bizarre interpretation.

Muslim woman hissing whore, really? Of course that is offensive and insulting, what a peculiar comment you make about this.

gemauve what I am saying is, in plain English, that if a Muslim man refuses to shake your hand, he's not doing it because his religion won't let him, he's simply an ignorant bastard (who probably looks down at you as an inferior.)
Some pp also said something about never having known a Muslim man who thinks of women as inferior. That's bollocks. I'm married to a lovely man and his friends and family are like him, but I have met lots of misogynistic bastards in the Muslim community (and quite a lot from other communities too).
Lastly a pp talking about Irish Catholics speaking out against the IRA. You should have come to Glasgow in the 80s and 90s then, where Celtic park flew the Irish Tricolour flag, and the fans wrote graffiti praising Bobby Sands and saying 'Fuck the Queen'. I didn't get much of an anti-IRA vibe from certain people in the Irish Catholic community then.

Lem73
Re Irish Catholics.....lots of people in the republic spoke out against ira, look up the peace trains from Dublin to Belfast in the 80/90s

If I extend my hand to shake hands, and it's refused, it's rude. Your denial is your problem. The reason you can't find a way to make people accept it as not rude is because it's rude.

Yes I am aware of the peace movement and I know a lot of Catholics who grew up in Northern Ireland who hated the IRA. However there was a large amount of the community where I grew up who openly expressed support in the 80s and 90s. This was when the IRA were bombing civilians on the mainland. Our neighbour's son was killed by the IRA and I remember just feeling numb that people living in the same city were supporting the IRA.

I wore an abaya in Riyadh and sat apart from men in restaurants.

I didn't like it; it went against every cultural and religious fibre of my being.

In the UAE, where the expatriate population actually outnumbered Emiratis, my friends of many cultures and I all dressed and behaved according to cultural and religious customs and law.

Forgive me if this sounds overtly hostile as it's easy to misread tone on the Internet, but I would genuinely like to know why it is therefore acceptable for someone who had made the UK their home (and possibly even hold British citizenship), not on a few years contract, cross the road or generally refuse contact with a local female/treat her differently because of her gender when this is so clearly against the local custom and indeed law?

(I'm so fascinated by this thread, I'm ousting from my hostess's bathroom )

Hand shaking is not done because in Islam any physical contact between men and women is not allowed unless of course you are married to them or they are a close relative.

It's religious, not cultural. However different societies have different levels of religiosity. So Turkey which is more liberal will be more relaxed about it as is lems experience, although there will be conservative religious Turkish families who do adhere to the ruling.

In Pakistan absolutely not the done thing, unless you come from high society where its all 'mwaah mwaah dahling to anything with a heart beat'.

Similarly not speaking to non-related people of the opposite sex - that's why your neighbours and shopkeepers ignore you.

For heavens sake, saying hello, handshakes .... it will surely to lead to sex !

And Allah knows best.

Peace.

Don't want to turn this into an Irish Catholic / ira thread but ....there was probably more support for terrorists in UK among 2nd / 3rd generation Irish with a romantic view of Ireland than those in republic.people travelling on peace trains etc gave people a voice to disown terrorists and paved the way for the peace process.

lem I couldn't give a rats arse if religious groups are 'protected'. No religion should be above criticism

No touching, or handshake, is actually necessary to greet your neighbor, nod or say good morning...

It depends on how literally he takes the rulings on the non-permissability of male -female friendship.

Shaytaan (the devil) is always hovering around and what may start off as a simple nod or hello could lead to all sorts of immoral behaviour as Shaytaan leads you astray.

Obviously this is an ultra-orthodox position and not typical of every muslim man. But it's the general principle underpinning the behaviour. Hence why he talks to your husband. It's not a muslim vs non-muslim thing.

"lem I couldn't give a rats arse if religious groups are 'protected'. No religion should be above criticism"

^ This.

No religion should be, that's scary territory, cults.

I don't even know why some people are frothing at the mouth about Islamic extremism.

Really? You can't think of any reasons why someone would be angry and upset?

2)Section 28 of the Crime and Disorder Act makes unlawful hostile behaviour towards people based on their religion or race

You notice the religion or race in the above? So it doesn't equate the 2 as the person who posted this seems to suggest. It also doeesn't mean that criticism of Islam isn't allowed.

Of course pulling veils etc is unacceptable. I like to think I would say something if I ever saw this.

I didn't get much of an anti-IRA vibe from certain people in the Irish Catholic community then.

I don't know how irish catholics got into this. the IRA was not based in catholicism.

that's different from IS, who are using islam to justify what they do.

No I never got much of an anti-IRA vibe from the Catholic community. But a lot of people these days are still ignorant enough to think that conflict was purely about religion. It wasn't. It was about civil rights.

Irish Catholics in Northern Ireland were discriminated against. They were forbidden to hold public office, denied rights to own property and were discriminated against in employment opportunities. A comparable case is Nelson Mandela. He admitted to bombing for the same reasons (denial of civil rights on the basis of religious, social or ethic group) but apparently he is a hero and Sinn Fein aren't.

The IRA are not comparable to Islamist extremists. They never wanted to impose their religion on anyone else. Yes, they did things wrong. But don't forget, they did this in the climate of the Birmingham 6 and the Guildford 4. Where the British state tortured and imprisoned people with no justification.

And the IRA hD a pretty clear set of aims and proved to be prepared to compromise and negotiate.

ISIS aren't.

All they want is to impose their ideology on the entire world. You can't compromise or negotiate with th. Just not comparable.

Quint I know the thread has moved on but I was thinking about bringing this point up. It is as it is so I wont beat about the bush.

At the one end, all muslims must always obey the laws of the land in which they are living except only if the law goes against a clear rule (not a preference) in islam and no workaround can be found. I cant off hand think of any british laws that muslims would circumvent. This makes muslims law abiding citizens and includes mundane examples making it islamically and morally compulsory for muslims to stop at red lights, declare all their savings to the benefit office, speak the truth to the police even if you may get fined as a result etc.

In the middle are things which are preferred, liked or disliked in Islam. There is flexibility here, a muslim might try to avoid something very culturally offensive in their home country, even if it were preferred in islam. Muslims must be as understanding as possible about the sensitivities of others in this area. Limited talking with members of the opposite sex (includes males AND females) would fall here like bmws friendly fisherman up thread. Things in this area will be influenced by culture on both sides, religiosity, interpretation of islamic rules etc.

Then at the other end we have things which and compulsory or forbidden in islam, for the practicing muslim there is no personal choice in these areas, and so for the observant muslim, deliberately touching members of the opposite sex falls into this category except for example to save someone else from harm, or necessary medical purposes.

The problem with the Irish conflict was down to the fact that a lot of people here, thought it was Catholics versus Protestant. There was very little understanding about it. As a catholic attending a catholic school, I got a lot of shit. I even got an apology from my English teacher (who outside of this incident was my favourite teacher) because he talked about the conflict and had no clue. The talk was very anti Irish Catholic. He didn't realise until I pointed it out. And apologised.

The problem is, some people have a few ideas about islam, mainly picked up from the media and unpleasant anecdotes, and this affects how they see all muslim people, as we've seen on here. These people have very entrenched, rigid thinking, and seems to generally be quite angry.

So i want to add here, that the male or female that is politely declining to shake someones hand is part of a bigger picture. They will also most likely be the type of muslim who picks other peoples litter up from the road, moves other peoples obstructions off the pavement, tells the cashier when she has undercharged them, carries old ladies bags home when they arent going that way, give a £50 note in charity instead of keeping it when they find it somewhere, goes back into a shop to pay for a packet biscuits that they forgot in the bottom of their trolley even if they had got all the way home.

But what I am hearing in some of this thread is quite an over reaction to people who do not share our own cultural norms. We can afford to be generous, considerate to other people. Why would you assume the shaking hands thing has to do with respect? The shaking hands thing harms noone, it is vastly more important to the non hand shaker than it is to the shakee, why not just see it as an opportunity to understand more about people who are different?

There is a cultural group in my area who are in the habit of talking in large groups and taking over the whole pavement but not moving when you approach.

Of course this is rude and inconsiderate in English culture, I feel that for a moment as I approach. Instead of letting this fester into a frothing dislike of everything these people do (and its certainly not the only or even the most annoying or rude cultural issue), I remind myself that they are not being intentionaly rude and that for all I know it is the norm in their country.

Quint, some of my husbands friends walk past me in the street and ignore me. This is because they believe it to be more polite and more pleasing religiously. I know them so i can be certain that it is not rudeness or looking down on women. Its difficult not to do it, but seeing muslim's actions through a lens of "always disrespecting women", for example, isnt going to increase understanding on either side, and I think is likely to stir up more hatred and misundersranding.

The sadest think for me on this thread is the confirmation of what I experience on a daily basis in terms if harrassment and unpleasant behaviour. That for some reason which i cannot understand, people dont seem to be able to see the difference between the actions of the few and the beliefs of the many.

And that when we have been discussing the reality of islamophobia, only a very small proportion of posters have actually come out and said that all rude, insulting, islamophobic behaviour that a muslim woman minding her own business might receive in the street is unacceptable.

i honestly don't see how people can object to a muslim man refusing to shake hands.

Don't we all repeatedly insist elsewhere on Mumsnet that no one ever has to tolerate physical contact they are not comfortable with?

I normally offer to shake hands with anyone sitting down for a meeting with at work, I don't always offer, but I have occasionally been refused, but not by muslims, or by men incidently, several white British women have told me they don't shake hands for some reason or other.

that the male or female that is politely declining to shake someones hand is part of a bigger picture. They will also most likely be the type of muslim who picks other peoples litter up from the road

I wonder how many of the people this photograph would shake a woman's hand?

Karbonfootprint shaking hands is accepted practice in professional settings. If you aren't comfortable shaking everyone's hand that you meet then you maybe shouldn't be in that position.
Of course a woman has every right to be offended if a man shakes hands with all the men and doesn't shake hers. It's really undermining her professional status.
As for speaking to a male neighbour and ignoring his female partner - a British woman has every right to feel offended. We want to be treated as 'people', a human being regardless of gender. If you speak to one person then you should speak to the next one.

Muslims are British women too