to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

For many people the fear of Islam isn't so much the atrocities committed by the fringe lunatics, it's the everyday stuff like cutting bits off babies, the denial of science, the misogyny etc.

domingo I don't think Muslims 'cut bits off babies', at least not in Britain. If you're referring to infant circumcision, that is part of the Jewish faith and is not even practiced by all Jewish parents nowadays.

No, the course leader (incidentally a lady very highly placed in her field) remained

The attendee was told that he was entirely free to leave if he wished, at which point he did a bit of ranting about how bigoted we all were, told us we'd be hearing from his representatives (whoever they were) and slammed the door behind him

Unfortunately he chose to report us to the EHRC ...

Um, FGM?

FGM is not specifically Muslim though, it's more of a tribal thing. It's practiced in certain African countries but not in the Middle East or Asia.

The attendee was told that he was entirely free to leave if he wished, at which point he did a bit of ranting about how bigoted we all were, told us we'd be hearing from his representatives (whoever they were) and slammed the door behind him

But politely. And then went to pick up litter.

What was the outcome of him complaint to the Equalities Commission (I assume that's who you mean)?

FGM is practised by Christians as well as Muslims, mostly in African countries such as Egypt and Sudan. I know it is illegal in Egypt but still widely down amongst rural communities.

Unfortunately he chose to report us to the EHRC ... hmm

what happened then?

Gemauve the Equalities Commission were fine about it; they rang us to get some background to the incident, discovered they'd obviously been told a pack of lies and dropped it - though no doubt the guy's now claiming the Commission are all racists too!!

As I said, I believe it's important not to think of him as some kind of "typical example" since everyone's different and we all have our share of idiots. Personally I was more worried about the lady who felt unable to say anything because of the consequences she felt such "disrespect" would have; I still can't quite work out what was going on there ...

I assumed the reference to cutting bits off babies was male circumcision, which is standard in Islam (and other religions and cultures too)

noeffingidea infant circumcision is prevalent amongst Muslim as well as Jewish people.

Puzzled he may not be typical but what a twunt. Dh's uncle got a job in Saudi Arabia many years ago. His wife was an academic and wanted to join him but couldn't because a woman couldn't stand up and lecture in front of men because it is considered indecent! So she said sod it and stayed behind.

I thought Muslims performed circumcision on older children, not babies. (not that I agree with either). I know Jews have the 8 day rule.
My mistake.

a male muslim attendee demanding the course leader be replaced because being instructed by a female offended him

My sister had a similar experience. She was a research scientist, her field was refrigeration engineering, and was on loan from her institute to another educational institution to teach a module on statistics. One of the students, a man from Iraq asked that the college replace her with a man as he refused to be taught by a woman. They told him there were no male with her expertise so she could not be replaced. He left the course.

I seriously doubts he picks litter, or help elderly ladies across the road. Chance would have it his daughter and my sisters daughter would end up in the same class in sixth form and make friends. His "totalitarian management" of his wife and two daughters has ensured both involvement with police and social services, and his oldest daughter has run away from home many times. Nothing polite or respectful about him.

I think what this thread demonstrates is the huge gulf between a significant proportion of muslims and the the rest of us, including the not so strict muslims.

In a country where the majority are not religious, to have to start making accommodations for the religious in every day life is bewildering and disturbing, particularly when the customs are so different to accepted norms.

As the muslim population grows to say >20% will the next step be to have to have sex-segregated events - that's really only one step on from not shaking hands. If a quarter of the attendees request it, would it be deemed discrimination to refuse ?

If not at 20%, then what about when or if the population rises to 50% (I realise that's a very long time away, but with increased immigration from muslim countries and the higher muslim birth rates, it's a distinct possibility that at some point we could approach that figure)

Some muslims clearly have an expectation that customs and behaviours should change to accommodate them. Teacup and others can you see why this irritates a lot of us, particularly when the expectation is for non-muslims to acquiesce to Islamic customs and mores in Islamic countries ?

Personally I like the UK for being what it is i.e. a 'Western country'. I do not want to see it being dragged backwards with allowances once again being given to super natural beliefs. My feeling is that those who want to lead a full Islamic life in public should move to one of the many Islamic countries. I wish we were far more assertive in asserting secularism in public spaces and far more robust in defending and demanding people adhere to Western customs, dress, etiquette etc.

Perhaps by doing so, there will be a lot less conflict and better integration because the ones who stay will be the ones who truly will see themselves as being British first and foremost, rather than defining themselves principally along religious lines, with greatest affinity to other muslims. Our society is already extremely fractured and continuing along this path is really not an option IMO.

My local pool (in my home town in arctic Norway) was closed two mornings a week for "Muslim women only swimming" - not just a women only swimming, you had to be a Muslim woman to take part. They were campaigning hard to get it, but but due to low interest it was changed to just once a week.

I struggle to understand what is being said to young people to make them choose radical Islam. I remember being an idealistic teenager (too many years ago) and subscribing to organisations that I thought would make the world a better place, but how can anyone think what is happening is making the world a better place.

Fifteen years ago I worked with a young student whose family fled Iraq under Hussein, when he spoke about being a muslim his next sentence was..'but I'm not a fundamentalist'. I remember wondering why he felt he needed to say that, now I wouldn't wonder.

But what is Islamophobia? Is it being rude to women in burkas (which is of course very wrong!) Or is it discussing the less pleasant Islamic strictures?

That women are inferior to men and that men can beat their wives? (4.34)

That the age of consent for girls should be 9?

Sometime I feel Muslims want to suppress any examination of their belief system, and though I can pity those caught in a totalitarian belief system, I think it is reasonable that all belief systems should, in a free society, be subject to examination and criticism.

xenu I agree. My christian friend thinks the world was created a few thousand years ago so the worked flints I keep digging up can't be older than that, she can't agree with my objections that exam papers have been modified in faith schools to expunge reference to evolution.

We must always be able to question things that seem wrong to us, but how do we question, how do we respond to criticism?

I think 'Islamophobia' is the wrong term. I will cheerfully challenge 'Muslimophobia' whenever I see it, as I understand that to be bigotry against people based on their faith. But 'Islamophobia' suggests that objecting to Islam is just as bigoted as objecting to Muslims. But it isn't. There are plenty of well informed objectors to Islam, including ex-Muslims. IMO there are also entry of quite rational reasons to dislike Islam. Given that I don't think 'phobia' is accurate at all as a phobia is a knee-jerk or irrational fear and some at least of what gets decried as Islamophobia is perfectly rational and well-reasoned.

Hostility to people based on their faith is wrong. Objections to an ideology or faith, in the abstract, just isn't comparable and should never be considered wrong - just a matter for debate. The people who are trying to jam Muslimophobia (wrong) and Islam-criticism into the same category and silence them all as bigotry are smuggling a thoroughly autocratic agenda under the cover of a supposed liberal pluralism.

If anybody watched Sunday Politics this morning a few interesting points were raised. One person said Isis is about Islam and to pretend otherwise is a nonsense. Or words to that effect. Andrew Neil himself said he had spoken to somebody who said the complacency as regards to Is reminded him of the attitude to towards Nazis in the 1930's.

What are the aims of Is. To terrorise everyone. To turn us all into Muslims. What?

'Andrew Neil himself said he had spoken to somebody who said the complacency as regards to Is reminded him of the attitude to towards Nazis in the 1930's.'

Did he say that - because that rings true to me.

He didn't actually say who said this. But I was quite surprised in a way that this was voiced. As we always have to take this softly softly approach and think oh well it's only a few extremists. They can't do that much harm. But how much damage has that one person done to the Tunisaian economy as regards tourism and the economic stability of the country.

I find most organised religions both absurd and fairly objectionable, in varying degrees. And fundamentally object to the elevated status and protection that bizarre and arbitrary opinions and practices that are part of organised religion are given above my personal and equally valid and seriously held non-religious beliefs.

Based on what I see of it, I find Islam particularly absurd and objectionable in many of its manifestations today.

Bunging phobic on the end of a word doesn't automatically make something irreproachable, and doesn't negate any criticism of it.

There's a lot that is extremely negative and extremely dangerous about Islam. To insist otherwise is just potty.

One person said Isis is about Islam and to pretend otherwise is a nonsense.

I was having a discussion with my DH about this this afternoon. All the people saying these atrocities are nothing to do with Islam are deluded. These people are perpetrating these acts in the name of Islam and even if they are entirely wrong in their interpretation of the Koran nonetheless that is their motivation. To suggest otherwise is deluded and panders to our apparent reticence to even vaguely criticise certain elements of the Muslim community.