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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

540 replies

karbonfootprint · 24/06/2015 18:38

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

OP posts:
Renniehorta · 27/06/2015 18:41

Genuine question; What is the reason for not shaking hands?

NoNameDame · 27/06/2015 18:42

Koala - I completely agree but this thread shows that this is happening on both sides.

This is going to sound awfully sexist but the impression I get is its men on both sides thinking they can do what they want. 1. White English men thinking they can harass and make fun of anyone who is different to them 2. Muslim men thinking they can look down on anyone who isn't a Muslim e.g white girls being called sluts

The white men is obviously an ignorant racist thing, fuelled by groups like Britain first and exploited by the media and immigration culture of blaming everyone who isn't white for Britons problems like housing etc.

I put the Muslim men acting this way down to te cut that Islam teaches them not to (or that they don't have to) be respectful to women, especially white non Muslim women I.e kaffur being a widely used term.

I may be wrong about why some Muslims are like this but it's difficult to swallow as what little I know about Islam leads me to think it is the religion that is causing these men to behave this way (I appreciate you and many other say Islam is not racist, homophobic, sexist etc but other who are widely covered in the media say it is fundamentally racist, sexist, homophobic etc)

It's easy for me to condem the white men attacking Muslims as we've not made similar choices (it's a choice to be Muslim but not to be white) it's hard for me to be forgiving to a Muslim then think we'll of Muslims when I generally believe this religion is racist, sexist, homophobic etc.

If be interested to hear why you think so many Muslims are thwarted what Islam is and making it something evil? Why are they letting Islam come before normal human judgement of treating people equally regardless of race, sex etc?

NoNameDame · 27/06/2015 18:45

Also very ignorant question here but had a avenue to ask this before and haven't and wouldn't google it as all I think I would get is propaganda.

Do Muslims (or any Muslim on here individually) learn from the Quran that non Muslims are inferior? does it say this in the Quran?

I'm sure I've heard passages of it.

SundayBea · 27/06/2015 18:47

I think that all racism is utterly wrong but I do wonder sometimes why it is seen as so terrible to make a comment about a Muslim but no one bats an eyelid when it's about French/Chinese/Irish/red haired people (for example, I could go on!) who are regularly and openly mocked but this not seen as distasteful or bad form and yet when it's a Muslim it's so very wrong and shocking. Can someone please explain?

sunshine401 · 27/06/2015 18:48

What has happened is disgusting behaviour. It is not in anyway a honourable act. It is a cowardly stupid act, they has destroyed many peoples lives.
They are trying to " get back " at the army because of Iraq yet they are too shit scared of going for the army so they choice innocent people who are unarmed and completely unaware.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/06/2015 18:48

Unfortunately, a mass terrorism campaign always causes fear and anger - the main purpose and it works.
These attacks across Europe have changed attitudes within EU countries towards Islam and Muslims.

I remember the unfair hostility towards Irish Catholics in the 1970s-1990s; the IRA killed people because of nationalism, not Catholicism and they paid lip service to following some limited rules of warfare.

Beheadings, deliberately murdering children, worshippers at a synagogue are far more barbaric than previous European terrorist campaigns from e.g. the IRA or ETA. So, more of an emotional response.

Some large "Not in My Name" marches after attacks on UK and EU vistims would be brilliant to counter this. We saw umpteen Irish peace marches that showed how most Irish people felt - even brought a Nobel Peace Prize.

As it is: we just see large marches against Israel, but few Muslims marching in protest against far more murders, enslavement and rape of Christians by ISIS
And there are more UK Muslims in ISIS than in the British Army
And surveys consistently show a substantial minority of UK Muslims think homosexuals or apostates should be punished.

Even on Mumsnet, Muslim posters keep complaining about Mistress whose posts are no more hostile than anyone else's - but who is an ex-Muslim "apostate"

Most of us have frequent contact with lovely individual Muslims, but unfortunately terror atacks cause terror, so we tend to remember the occasions when a Muslim man startled us with medieval attitudes.
So, yes, Muslims could change attitudes if they stood up more publically for nonviolence, like Irish Catholics did, so we could remember Muslim peace marches instead.

NoNameDame · 27/06/2015 18:58

Sunshine - who is this 'they' you are talking about?

That makes it sound as if you are talking about Muslims as a whole, which no1 is I don't think, it would be racist to think the same of a whole group of people. The thread has moved on to talking about how a lot of Muslims are exhibiting specific behaviours eg not shaking women's hands, not wanting do to mix etc and whether these behaviours are rude or not and have they come from Islam itself or the individual people.

Not every Muslim is trying to get back at the army, so saying 'they' is not helpful.

Do Muslims maybe have less of a respect for the armed forces than non Muslims? Has UK operations in Iraq etc affected how Muslims think about our army? These topics would be interesting to discuss.

BMW6 · 27/06/2015 19:00

I have to say I live in a very multicultural city - Southampton. I have close neighbours who are Christian, Sikh, Muslim and Hindu. The children all play together and the adults are all pleasant and neighbourly. My NDN is Muslim and they often knock on the door to present some lovely food. They love my Lemon Drizzle cake (well, Mary Berry's....)

When Lee Rigby was murdered the local Mosque had members call to every home in the neighbourhood to ask if there was anything that they could do to help the community. Wonderful.

Today when walking my dog I came across a Muslim chap (30's I guess) full beard etc, fishing. I'm in crop trousers and t shirt, lone female. I said Morning, he replied & we had a small chat about the prospect of him catching fish. He admired my dog.

I am posting this to tell you all, Muslim and non Muslim, that it's not ALL shitty.

(BTW some Muslim ladies cross the road when they see my dog and I approaching - they have explained that they have washed for prayers and must not touch the dog. I now keep dog closer to my side if I see Muslim lady approaching so she knows I know IFSWIM) No sweat. No offence given or taken.

KoalaKoo · 27/06/2015 19:03

Bmw6 what a lovely post

sunshine401 · 27/06/2015 19:05

I really don't think this is a topic that is needed right now. The Isis is committing murder and we as a human race should be working together to bring this to an end.
This group is spreading through teachings and they are claiming it is a Muslim way of life. Now we are responsible to teach our younger generation but because they are doing it in what they claim is the name of Allah, it is more important than ever that Muslim communities are working hard in their places of worships,schools etc in regards of teaching their younger generations that no this is not how Allah wants us to be that it is no connection to the Muslim faith.
Of course everyone has to teach the young about this. However as it is being done under a Muslim title and is recruiting young Muslims it is quite obvious that this needs to be tackled.

sunshine401 · 27/06/2015 19:08

I was talking about the Isis as "they" are the ones who committed these attacks.

Gemauve · 27/06/2015 19:13

but still not found an ideal solution that conveys "no offence genuinely intended".

But is intended to be offensive. It says "you are unclean to me".

Jewish men who refuse to shake hands with women in case they might be menstruating: rude.

Racists who pointedly refuse to sit next to black people: rude.

If you set out to be rude to people, no matter how much you justify it to yourself, it's rude.

OliveCane · 27/06/2015 19:13

BMW6 what a lovely post indeed.

OliveCane · 27/06/2015 19:16

Gemauve, you have misunderstood completely. Muslims don't shake hands with the opposite gender, out of respect for the other person's personal boundary. For example, how would you feel if a lady kissed your partner on both cheeks as a greeting (as is common in some countries)? Personally I wouldn't like it if a man kissed me on both cheeks as a greeting.

It has nothing to do with being unclean or whatever.

Gemauve · 27/06/2015 19:19

But it would never be ok to stop a stranger in the street to criticise their religion, clothing choices etc.

White man criticises veil: racist, islamophobic, probably criminal.

Muslim woman hisses "whore" at 12 year old with bare shoulders: cultural, and probably meant to be polite.

Gemauve · 27/06/2015 19:19

Muslims don't shake hands with the opposite gender, out of respect for the other person's personal boundary.

By extending their hand, the other person has given you permission to touch them. You're refusing. It's not polite to them at all.

Fluffy40 · 27/06/2015 19:32

My friends who are Islamic have never let me down or talked behInd my back. They are true friends.

lem73 · 27/06/2015 19:36

Gemauve the choice to shake hands is cultural not religious. In my dh's country it would be considered extremely rude not to shake someone's hand. Amongst our social circle and family, we kiss men and women to greet them.
Mil is a senior university administrator in a Muslim country. She told me a student refused to shake her hand when he visited her office. She went ballistic at him yelling at him for being so ignorant. I don't get on that well with MIL but I love the way she doesn't tolerate bullshit!

lem73 · 27/06/2015 19:38

BMW6 you sound lovely and have a very healthy attitude.

Tiredemma · 27/06/2015 19:39

So, yes, Muslims could change attitudes if they stood up more publically for nonviolence, like Irish Catholics did, so we could remember Muslim peace marches instead

I have just had a look on the FB pages of 5 local Mosques- not one has made any reference to the terror attacks in Tunisia. That actually speaks dangerous volumes to me- why will these Mosques not speak up and renounce these attacks?

karbonfootprint · 27/06/2015 19:40

well, I have just come back from a day at London pride, where were Muslim groups marching alongside Jewish and Christian ones, so there is the answer to your question about aren't all Muslims homophobic. No they are not.

OP posts:
Gemauve · 27/06/2015 19:40

Gemauve the choice to shake hands is cultural not religious.

The choice is personal. It's something the person doing the refusing chooses to do. They're choosing to do something that the vast majority of the population of this country see as pointedly insulting. I'm perfectly entitled to regard as rude something which the person doing it knows is rude, and yet chooses to continue doing.

And here's someone being rude and saying it's religious:

www.standard.co.uk/news/education/muslim-school-inspector-employed-by-ofsted-refuses-to-shake-womens-hands-9527387.html

UncertainSmile · 27/06/2015 19:48

well, I have just come back from a day at London pride, where were Muslim groups marching alongside Jewish and Christian ones, so there is the answer to your question about aren't all Muslims homophobic. No they are not.

It would be indeed strange if gay Muslims were homophobic. I wonder what their families think.

QuintShhhhhh · 27/06/2015 19:51

Koala, I hear what you are saying, when you say he is not rude but respectful....

How is it then, that I as a non-Muslim person living in Britain must understand and accept his behaviour because he is Muslim, whereas HE does not have to adhere to the cultural norms of the country he has made his home?

If he was a German, British, Buddhist or Jewish man, who I met every morning and made a point of NOT returning my greeting, on a daily basis, I would think him rude. Why must I learn that he is treating me with respect in his culture, why shall he not have to understand this culture and adhere to it?

lem73 · 27/06/2015 19:52

It has been said several times by the wonderful experts on MN that making negative comments about Islam is not racist because it's not a race. In fact religious groups are protected by English law, eg:
1)The Equality Act 2010 protects religious groups from discrimination
2)Section 28 of the Crime and Disorder Act makes unlawful hostile behaviour towards people based on their religion or race.
Of course someone will come along to argue with these facts because some people have such closed minds they will never change them.
I don't even know why some people are frothing at the mouth about Islamic extremism. It's moderate Muslims who are most at risk. I worry that as my daughter grows up she'll get ignorant little bastards outside of the home telling her what she does and how she behaves is haram (a sin). We are trying to raise her to have a mind of her own so she won't be easily influenced. We also have to be really careful about who our kids mix with because there are people out there with very worrying views about religion. Moreover, when I see yet another attack on Westerners, I worry about my kids' safety when we visit Turkey, their father's country. (For the record they look totally English).