to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

Gemauve, i meant personally, not in the papers

I used to work with one of her brothers. He literally had no shame, wouldn't usually talk about it but when he did he said she brought it on herself

Goodness the number of misapprehensions and stereotypes is really breathtaking, its no wonder muslims are so misunderstood and the gulf is ever increasing.

The men who are crossing the road are probably religious types and are doing it to be polite. HE is responsible for his actions and HE has to move. I am obv a muslim woman, I will never have to move out if a muslim mans way on the pavement, he will move out of minr, even if he has to walk on the road or cross the road to do so.

Why would people believe myths and stereotypes in preference to finding out facts??

But who do I believe to tell me what is Islamic or not?

The men who are crossing the road are probably religious types and are doing it to be polite.

But it isn't polite. It's the racism of low expectations to argue that the people don't know that their behaviour is taken as rude, or that other people have any obligation to see it as anything other than rude.

It doesn't matter if he thought he was being polite, he was actually being rude & sexist (and not accepting of the cultural norms of the country he is living in) my 90 yr old senile nan calls black people darkies or blackies she thinks this is more polite than nigger, her actions are wrong but at least she has a medical illness which is causing it rather than 'cultural differences' being responsible for her rudeness. He can choose to be polite and acknowledge people (as can the Muslims men who won't submit to a female boss or cooperate with a female colleague) but no their religion is more important than this.

The men who are crossing the road are probably religious types and are doing it to be polite

I'm sure that may be the case at times.

What would be the manners of the taxi driver in Dubai who refused to drive me to my office, got out of his car and spat on my arm because I was a single woman.

I was in a long-sleeved suit, and had got a taxi from that corner for three years, so no mistaking me for an inappropriately-dressed tourist in the wrong part of town.

Not that that would have, in my opinion, excused the behaviour.

So, Koala, if someone has spent most of their life talking about coons and Pakis, you'll be happy for them to call you a coon to their face, as you understand their culture and they might be just doing it to be polite?

Jesus, denial is more than a river, isn't it?

Well, the looks of contempt on their faces, as if they had encountered a bad smell didn't seem polite.

The shopkeepers not acknowledging my existence as I said hello, please and thank you didn't seem very polite. My money was still good enough, however.

And the young men physically threatening me were certainly not being polite.

The various men I have dealt with at work were also not polite, they were quite frank that I wasn't good enough for them to speak to. The way their language and behaviour changed when male colleagues took over was enlightening.

I have been a victim of prejudice from all these men but you are trying to tell me I misunderstood all my experiences?

My point is that my experience has not led me to assume that if my next door neighbour was ignoring me but happy to speak to my husband it was out of politeness.

It does make me want to scream when people on MN say I'd like to hear more Muslims stand up against extremism. Whenever I have on MN and said, like yesterday, a proper Muslim would not condone or commit these atrocities I get lectures from self proclaimed experts that the problem is Islam itself blah blah. So what is a Muslim going to do?
As for the pp who said saying things against Islam isn't racist, I'm pretty sure religion is included in the Race Discrimination Act. It's been years since the studied that stuff but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't.

Len

People are having a discussion of you don't want to be a part of it, because you can't bear to hear Islam being slated (rightly or wrongly) then you don't have to be a part of that discussion.

Again I think it's the right thing to do (although I agree your not obligated to) to differentiate yourself from something so evil when they are aligning themselves with Muslims in general. E.g I go out of my way to say I disagree (and I challenge them) with racist comments when I hear people who are attached to me (older family members, etc) as I wouldn't want anyone to think I agreed with them.

I am not suggesting this of every Muslim so much but the leaders, imams and Muslim world leaders etc, MPs and people who have an influence on how the Muslim community is seen to be.

'My point is that my experience has not led me to assume that if my next door neighbour was ignoring me but happy to speak to my husband it was out of politeness'

Well I hadn't assumed that either initially, but now it has been explained to me I can understand that the intention may not have been to be rude and therefore it isn't 'ignoring' behaviour as such - it's intended to be respectful - a cultural difference.

Saying things against Islam should not be a crime, saying things about scientific or philosophical theories should never be a crime, that's just debate.

People individually shouldn't be critisised for things outside of their control e.g race, sex etc. but choices they make e.g religion, vegetarianism, choosing to live in te Forrest off the land etc are all things that should be able to be critiqued in the appropriate forum as long as that criticism does not constitute a crime e.g harassment or intimidation. I would only criticise someone's religion if they asked me outright what I though or I was asked for my opinion, on a thread like this or I was bringing it up to make a point, eg about behaviour that was unacceptable e.g refusing to acknowledge female work colleagues.

People should never have to endure discrimination in how they are treated (e.g not getting jobs, being attacked as a hate crime, etc) for any reason including religion but also for things like fashion sense and accent.

Sardine, it is rude at the very very least. Everyone would agree with that except very rude people like him.

discussing this topic with female friends last night, really difficult for some of their teenage dcs friends who are Moslem but not allowed to have any interaction out of school with the Western dcs.

also what the others and I found so hard was the lack of choice these dc have. my son didn't want to go to church whereas Christianity is important to me but I would never force him. what if they don't want to follow Islam?

I really cannot imagine how moving out of womens path on the pavement is rude. Perhaps you consider holding doors to be rude, but I dont find that rude at all.
I think that having explained in, maybe some are reluctant to let go of long held prejudices.
Like we said up thread, a little tolerance and not assuming every action is intended to offend goes a long way.

Woodhill, when the dc are responsible for themselves they will make their own choices, you cannot force someone to believe in something, or in the importance of something.

Islam is a belief system not a race lem

KoalaKoo yes, absolutely.

I grew worryingly used to having colleagues refuse to shake my hand or take meetings without other males present, but this was a whole new level.

Where I come from, we've fought long and hard to be accorded equal status to men in all areas, including legally, socially and professionally so being treated in a discriminatory fashion because I am female does not automatically lead me to applaud the manners of the man who ignores me, but rather to interpret his actions, most especially in Europe which has led the way in equality, as impolite. Can you understand that cultural difference yourself?

Noname, critique etc in an appropriate place is surely absolutely fine. But it would never be ok to stop a stranger in the street to criticise their religion, clothing choices etc. I live in Britain and am proud that we have a tradition which means that I have the right to dress how I want. That absolutely does not give people the right to ridicule, criticise or harrass me for it in any way. Its rude, illmannered, agressive and also upsetting.

maybe some are reluctant to let go of long held prejudices.
Like we said up thread, a little tolerance and not assuming every action is intended to offend goes a long way

Quite.

Sardine yes I can. I am British myself. The handshaking issue is also easily explained and absolutely no insult whatsoever to the other person. You may not know that the rule applies equally to women as it does to men, so I dont shakes mens hands, but interestingly they are far less likely to take offence, as you say perhaps because they are not assuming that it comes from a sexist perspective.

Yes I am excrutiatingly aware that there is the possibility of offence being taken due to cultural norms, as are the male non hand shakers. So I handle it as delicately as possible, but still not found an ideal solution that conveys "no offence genuinely intended".

I attended Muslim schools and have spent many years in the Middle East, so I'm quite aware of the thinking behind it. As I said, I was able to accept it working for a UAE company. Just.

In Europe, it's rude. There's no delicate way of saying it

Anyway, thank you all for a fascinating dialogue and I look forward to catching up tomorrow.