to wonder what benefits will get the chop from the £12 billion of cuts?

[steiner8]

Just that really. I'm wondering which benefits are going to go or be significantly cut. Anyone have any idea?

TTWK- you were able to educate yourself because you were born with the ability to do so.

Yes, like the vast majority of people, including 95% of those with no qualifications and no desire to get any.

I'd love to know how much tax the non dom avoids. My guess it's less than the average person receives in benefits, otherwise it wouldn't be worth it.

And, no love. You've not paid "your fair share" otherwise you'd be paying tax on every single penny you earn still!

But longtime I am not dead (so presumably I am still in credit?!) I have no plans to return to the UK and I do not live there. How do I "benefit" exactly? In the circumstances, my point stands as well!
Some real sanctimonious twaddle on here...

people do the best with the cards they are dealt

But millions don't. Some are dealt good hands and waste them, others are dealt bad hands and just fold. They don't try and improve their hand.

Bollocks I'm so angry I fucked my post up. My guess is the nondom avoids more tax than the average person receives in benefits!

Fairy do you have an ISA or savings account? If so, you are a "tax avoider" too, yes?

I am not paying tax on my current earnings because I do not "earn" them in the UK so HMRC has no jurisdiction. But yes yes, tax avoiders, evil, blah blah (yawn)

You benefit because you have property here and therefore benefit from the society which allows it to increase in value, whilst protecting your asset. You know the little things like roads, street lights etc without which your property would be worth less. The rule of law which stops your property from being taken by squatters, or protects you from rogue tenants. There are so many more as well. But you "paid your fair share" I seriously doubt it actually.

TTWK, you talk rubbish, according to the data most of the population are in work and trying to do well. The problem then comes when it suits corporations to pay low wages to boost profits, all costs of this are picked up by the government in terms of HB, CTC etc.

Your "pull up by your bootstraps" ideals may have worked for you, but you are in a small percentage of the population. Many others strive and fall by the wayside through not fault of their own. The strivers and skivers narrative is a falsehood. Is that why, using my own anecdotes, I know many people from ordinary backgrounds who worked hard, went to uni, and end up with very average jobs because they can't afford the internships or post grad qualifications that others further up the ladder can.

The entire reason we are having this debate is because the "brightest and best" in the banking industry were incompetent, corrupt and have been proven to have been so.

"I'm alright Jack keep your hands off my stash"

But millions don't. Some are dealt good hands and waste them, others are dealt bad hands and just fold. They don't try and improve their hand.

So what?

People are human. They are weak, the make mistakes, they take risks that don't pay off, they don't take risks because they are afraid, they get sick (including mental illness), they have times in their life when they can't cope, they get addicted to substances or activities, they put other people first and squander opportunities, they don't recognise opportunity when it arises, they work hard but are hard to like and so are isolated, they are not that clever, they are very clever but lack direction...

Lack of success in life is not a measure of a person's worth.

And people should not have shit lives just because they don't match with what society values financially right now.

We don't accept child abusers using their own abusive childhood as an excuse for their behaviour. We wouldn't accept a rapist's plea of "well my dad was a rapist" as an excuse. We should not accept "I'm poor because I come from a poor family." Plenty of people do climb out of poverty, and plenty of kids move from middle class childhoods into drugs and skid row. We all have choices.

what a ridiculous analogy. The key difference is that there are certain things for which we are all in competition for, the obvious one is housing but there are others (university places etc). a person with a poor background is in direct competition with a person from a rich background when buying a home, and thus has to be especially talented, on average, to climb out of that hole. Many people now cannot buy a home without help from their parents. No matter how virtuous you are, that's just our screwed up economics.

There is no "culture of dependency"

there is a massive culture of dependency, but unfortunately the tories have taken our eye off the ball by framing this as a feckless vs virtuous debate. The fact of the matter is that people with good training and good jobs can't afford housing in some parts of the country. I have a number of friends in this situation, but my anecdotal evidence shouldn't be needed to convince you. We know that teachers, nurses and even doctors in some cases can't afford to live anywhere near work without state help. That's on both labour and the tories for screwing up the housing market and propping up housing benefits instead of home building - and we all allowed it. During the last GE ambitious home building was essentially not mentioned by any party.

When nearly 30% of households in the capital need housing benefits to pay for housing, there is clearly a dependency problem. There isn't even a pretence now that most of us should be able to pay for our own housing.

Envious, I just did a quick and dirty calculation and it's about 1.05 million sterling over 20 years assuming a marginal rate of 55%. It's a bit over 800k if you assume 40% and lock at income only - hard to be completely accurate because the HR threshold changes.
But yes, I am despicable

I think this is what bother me most, those who think that just because they were able to achieve wealth, success etc that anyone can do it ...if they only work hard enough.

Fact is that people are not infallible and they do make mistakes. Some do not have the same intellectual capabilities, some do not have stability at home.

As a child my family struggled financially, no silver spoon here but what I did have was support to study, an interest and encouragement in my achievements plus the ability to achieve academically.

I am and was fortunate....some don't have any of those things.

The entire reason we are having this debate is because the "brightest and best" in the banking industry were incompetent, corrupt and have been proven to have been so.

Nope, the banking crisis was a factor but only one factor. As a country we live beyond our means. We spend more than we earn. We have built up huge debt. That was the case before the banking crisis.

It cannot continue. The UK needs to find a way of getting more money in, or spending less, or a combination of the two.

Sorry longtime I assume the council tax paid by my DH or the tenants paid for street lighting and roads?

envioys thank you

The liberal use of "cunts" to describe Tory voters was the only reason I posted here. (Amazingly it wasn't to discuss my tax affairs!)

Nope Oldfarticus, it didn't pay a "fair share", especially down to the fact that council tax is woefully under priced in the higher bands. But we can't see that increase can we. What you paid was a contribution towards it, not the "fair share" if we charged on an actual value/benefit ratio the wealthy would be paying far more.

what makes you assume that I have "higher band" property longtime? Or are you making assumptions?

If I was being "despicable" I would point out that if the tax goes up too high, many landlords will simply sell, evict their tenants and invest their cash somewhere else. (Actually I have no intention of doing that, but that is the logical progression of name calling and baseless assumptions).

So was the country living beyond its means for the majority of the 20th century then? For almost all of the Thatcher and Major years? Why was it ok to have the deficit at the size it was in 1997 and not at the same size before the crash in 2007? The banking crash was a major economic shock and caused a massive increase in spending to avert a complete economic disaster, much of which went to bail out banks. It is now being used as an excuse to hit the poor.

Do you understand the difference between deficit and debt? So why is Osbourne the deficit cutter the Chancellor who has added the largest amount of post war debt to the country? MORE than Labour managed in 13 years?

TTWK - brilliant post. My parents were dirt poor and left school at 14. Now wealthy after working all hours, self educating and setting up businesses.

My DH ditto.

Me - uber middle class , great school etc etc - can only ever earn a 10th of what poor, deprived, impoverished DH brings in.

These threads get so nasty

I find it strange too that despite us smashing the election there appears to be a dearth of Tories on MN

It was on the news this morning that the cuts are likely to going to affect housing benefit and tax credits. Housing benefit is the biggest slice of the welfare behind pensions. (Pensions approximately 47% of the budget, housing benefit is 16%.)

So what are people going to do? The vast majority of people who claim housing benefit and tax credits are in work. These cuts are going to hit low paid earners. (If you have a look at the statistics, only 212,000 people in May had been claiming jobseekers allowance longer than a year - as a proportion of the population that is miniscule - very few people chose benefits as a lifestyle choice - statistics from NOMIS.)

The issue is that the government aren't addressing the root cause which is a lack of affordable housing which means that people have to claim tax credits to top up their income. Make buy to lets an unattractive option especially when empty, make any new planning applications have a higher proportion of affordable housing, invest in new houses (thus creating more jobs.) This is what needs addressing.

If anyone is any doubt about the level of suspicion aimed at those on tax credits, then go and read on money matters where there are several threads at the moment about a company called Concentrix acting on behalf of the government and investigation all the tax credit claims to check that these women are really single. Benefit fraud is a tiny proportion of the budget, so nothing like using a sledgehammer to solve a perceived problem (which actually doesn't exist.)

As several people keep saying we are all only one accident/set of circumstances to having to rely on benefits. I personally would rather move to a system similar to Germany where benefits are related to how much you have put into the system and are generous for the first year and then taper off fairly drastically after that. That gives you time to assess your situation, find work, or move without stressing that you are going to lose your home and means that you are less likely to make it as a lifestyle choice as you need to pay in first if you want more than the bare minimum. (Not that I hasten to add many people do make it a lifestyle choice!)

And as a Tory voting (indeed former Cameron employee) private landlord who employs an accountant to minimise my tax affairs I'm clearly a cunt on all counts

MrGove my theory is that MN consists mainly of earnest A level politics students...

Plus it's so easy to call someone a "cunt" on t'internet.

oh

Most people who voted Tory won't post as they will be blamed for everything and called cunts

For what's it's worth I think the NHS, pensions and old age care are doomed whoever are in power. I just don't think the country can cope