Charleston church shootings - why is everyone only talking about race?

[HootsMon]

Obviously there was a racial motivation to this outrage - the shooter has confessed as much - and god knows I have no idea what is must be like to be black in parts of the US. I'm sure they get the shitty end of the baton on many occasions.

But AIBU for being really angry that on news and social media, people seem only to be talking about the race issue - tying it in with recent police beatings, etc.- instead of the real issue, which is IMO - GUNS!

You get racist dicks in every country - America is one of the few countries that you can give one a gun for his 21st birthday.

Yanbu op - I hope in our children's lifetime the US will re consider this vile abhorrent law

Yes, seneca, that's true, and there is evidence he was doing so.

The internet and social media give a voice to the repressed, so many of us raised as open minded (but still unintentially racist because priviledge) have had our eyes opened by the steady presentation of the world from the African-American point of view via social media. But the flip side is, those more open to negativity can find a steady stream of vitriol to reenforce that view.

his parents express shock, they may well be not as extreme as he has become. But it is likely his grandparents were. Some of his teachers. Some of the neighbors and classmates.

Laladeepsouth guncontrol not being focussed on isnt because americans are nonplussed about the gun issues this time. It is because African-Americans rightly will not let it be 'just another shooting'. He didnt go to a white school or a mall in a white neighborhood. He purposefully chose a black gathering and was openly quite racist and, they are insisting his own stated intentions be recognised as part of the overall problem that allows cops and others in power to cover up atrocities they committ. The A-A media and social media networks are demanding he be treated as a criminal, not another misguided white boy with a gun.

Racism + guns is the issue.

It's also notable the devastating regularity with which these cases happen in the US compared to other countries

Actually such cases happen regularly elsewhere but are far, far less widely reported. Eight people killed in the Czech Republic in February this year for instance: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31608932

Scale up across Europe to reach the same population as the US and we're not actually all that far behind. And yes, there have been mass shootings in Switzerland too.

I am fervently anti-guns, but I think we need to start the argument from a place of truth which is a) that this is not uniquely an American phenomenon and b) not all shooters are angry young white male loners. There have been plenty of Black / middle-aged / female shooters too, but they don't fit the neat media narrative so they don't get reported as much.

There have been plenty of Black / middle-aged / female shooters too, but they don't fit the neat media narrative so they don't get reported as much.

But mass killings tend to be the preserve of white males.

No, that's my point. There have been plenty of ethnic minority / not young mass killers and several women, too, but they don't get nearly as much media coverage.

Yes well GreatAuntDinah, it is the media narrative that gets on my wick. Because he is a white male he must be a poor mentally ill man, if he were brown or black he would not have come out of this alive and if he had been a Muslim, all two billion Muslims would have been expected to take the blame and been berated for months, if not years, for not expressing enough shame for his actions.

I think it's inevitable that a mass killing such as the one that has just taken place in Charleston will attract a lot of international media interest. And it's a truth that most of these killings are carried out by white males.

I'm not in America so can't say for certain what domestic coverage of shootings is like but even from afar I know that 'black on black' crime is a phrase beloved of the media when discussing gun crime.

The big discrepancy is between men and women, which are 50/50 of the population but far more men are mass shooters - though as I say it's not at all unknown for women to do it too. White men may well be the majority perpetrators, but then since they're the majority ethnicity that's not saying much. I'd be interested to see statistics on perpetrators and victims by race as percentage of the overall population compared to air time given to such events.

ahh, here we go, greatauntdinah here to divert attention from the racist murders of 9 people in church, including an 87 year old woman, to protect the poor widdle misguided white boy.

Uh yeah that's pretty well the exact opposite of what I'm saying creighton, well done.

I haven't a clue what point you are trying to make GreatAuntDinah

I stated twice at the end of two posts that I thought that the the American public feels that racism IS the issue in this horrific crime. I was attempting to explain to the OP why the firearms issue was not being emphasized by many. In no way did I indicate that I thought there was any motivation except racism in this crime and did not discuss any factor.

post should conclude -- did not discuss any other factor concerning the shooter's possible motivation or any other underlying circumstance related to the shooter in this crime.

It's their constitutional right to carry a firearm and defend themselves apparently!

1 case in the Czech republic does not equate to mass shootings happening frequently elsewhere.

In the UK, I can only think of three (non terrorist related) mass shootings in the last 30 years. I am certain that the US has had many, many times that.

There are layers of problems here.

Racisim contributes to the lack of sensible gun control laws. Here's how it works:

1. I am afraid of black men. They are big and strong and violent and intimidating - I need a gun!

1. A lot of the people dying of gun violence are young black men. Instead of looking at the statistics and saying, "Gee, young guys who are naturally impulsive and full of testosterone are killing each other. We have a duty of care to create a world where they can safely grow up and out of these behaviours without killing themselves." What you in fact get is: Who cares about all these deaths; it's mostly just black guys killing each other. They don't really matter. Or, even worse: All the right people are getting shot anyway.

Yes, because it's a much bigger country. They happen more in the US, sure, but they're not a uniquely American phenomenon as many people seem to think. I can think of about ten other cases in Europe off the top of my head.

Firearm-related death rate per 100,000 population per year.

Firearm related homicides per 100,000

USA - 3.55
UK - 0.25
Czech Republic - 0.12

Of course there are countries with far higher rates of gun crime than America

Jamaica - 39.4
Honduras - 64.8
Colombia - 27.1

But in terms of first world countries America has far higher rates of gun crime than anywhere else per 100,00 population.

Sure. I'm not arguing that the US doesn't have a big problem with guns, it does.

I am trying, but finding it very hard, to find information on rampage killings per head of population. Most of it concentrates on firearms deaths or gun murders. Understandably. That which you can find is mostly NRA type blogs about how we're all wrong and guns don't kill people, people kill people.

According to this rather random website the US is 6th in per capita shootings.

Now, I don't know how the ranking would change if it was a different snapshot. According to this the US is behind Norway, Finland, Slovakia, Israel and Switzerland.

Norway is there courtesy of the Breivik massacre. It was responsible for all deaths on the chart. I suspect that once that fell out of any reference period, Norway would be far lower.

I know nothing about Finland or Slovakia. Israel I suspect has its own reasons for making the chart and Swizterland has very high levels of gun ownership (though low overall gun crime).

Contrary to what the website concludes, it all seems to be suggesting to me that easy access to guns isn't a great idea. Because then violent (mostly) men hellbent on rampages also have access to guns. In this case a violent racist.

In my experience white liberal Americans are much more willing to criticise gun culture than ingrained racism. And there has been discussion of guns in all the coverage I've seen including strongly worded comment from Obama. Yabu.

None of the 3 mass shootings that I can remember in the UK had any apparent links to racism. This is over the period of 30 years.

Savernake Forest/Hungerford in 1987
Dunblane 1996
Lake District 2010

I think it says a lot for our gun laws and attitude to guns that these incidents are mercifully very rare.

Racism is a massive problem in the States. Which came first though? It's a chicken and egg situation.

the racism came first with slavery. it is called America's original sin.

It's not a chicken and egg situation. I agree with creighton. The US was born with a legal system, enshrined in the Constitution, that allowed human beings (mainly white, and for what it's worth, mainly of British origin) to own other human beings who were black. We still live with that horrific legacy. The gun issue is important but it is secondary to racism as a societal problem.