Charleston church shootings - why is everyone only talking about race?

[HootsMon]

Obviously there was a racial motivation to this outrage - the shooter has confessed as much - and god knows I have no idea what is must be like to be black in parts of the US. I'm sure they get the shitty end of the baton on many occasions.

But AIBU for being really angry that on news and social media, people seem only to be talking about the race issue - tying it in with recent police beatings, etc.- instead of the real issue, which is IMO - GUNS!

You get racist dicks in every country - America is one of the few countries that you can give one a gun for his 21st birthday.

I'd say that when a 2-10 yo accidentally shoots a sibling or parent which you see relatively frequently reported then it is the gun and not the person that killed or maimed.

mathanxiety you are purposely mistaken, because you are trying to deflect and take what I said out of context. I gave a bigger picture but to be honest - I can't say much more about your opinion because in my book, people like you who still assume a right to tell me how I should feel, think, respond and react to this type of outrage are the least of it...you think any comment and empathy has to take a form that you feel is acceptable. & because what I said isn't acceptable to you, you've now moved on to say Ive criticised the family's choice.

If Id wanted to criticise their choice - I would have. Still if thats what you've carefully picked out from all that I wrote, thats your call isn't it...your issues in accepting how a black person might look at this differently from you and difficulty in accepting validity isn't my problem.

Regardless the scum who did it is getting his 15minutes of fame, that's for sure.

Please excuse me for returning to the OP's question re firearms in the US (and also if I'm covering points that have been discussed which I missed). The shooter was in violation of a number of federal and state firearm laws at the time of the murders. He should never have been able to obtain a firearm ( had been charged with a felony), or transport it in his vehicle (had no permit for weapon), or take it into the church (a gun free zone under SC law unless specifically permitted by pastor). He broke all of these laws, which were already in place. Some politicians and those in the media, etc., very disingenuously continue to push for more gun control laws as the solution and very self-servingly pretend that (more) laws will solve this problem as if they are unaware of the reality. The laws already on the books should prevent these atrocities but these types of criminals don't/won't/have no intention of abiding by these law(s). One very sad fact is that very often these killers purposefully go into what they know are gun-free zones to commit these horrendous crimes.

The United States is a huge country physically, with a population of over 300 million and with an estimated 300 million firearms. We also have a very porous 2,000 mile long southern border and many thousands of miles along the northern border and coast lines and there is no way to prevent the infiltration of even more weaponry without a concerted push to control this by our government, which often seems unwilling or unable to do so. The law- abiding populace is not willing, for the most part, to be rendered completely at the mercy of the small element that is dangerous, as well as armed. The only other solution is confiscating weapons/disarming the entire populace, which could only be done by creating a police state for lack of a better term.

This isn't an apology for firearms in the US I just wanted to add a little clarification to the questions about when the US will begin to solve the gun culture problem and why it doesn't. (By the way, my household is not a part of the third of the population that owns a firearm, but I understand completely those that do even though I personally am a bit scared of guns.) It's not a simple problem, and it's not going to be solved by solutions that sound good in a political speech. Everyone in the US would like to solve this problem. We're all sickened and horrified by the vicious murder of the innocent worshippers in Charleston

In addition, I have read that the shooter bought the weapon himself with the money that he had received for his birthday -- and didn't receive the weapon as a present from a family member, as has been reported. Again, there were laws in effect/on the books that should have prevented him from purchasing the gun but tragically didn't.

I see plenty of discussion about guns, but I am American and may be looking at a lot of sites and reading a lot of FB discussions you arent.

However, with the multiple recent instances of African-Americans being treated badly by police or having 911 called for nothing, their is a big ongoing discussion on that, and at least in my network, the African-American community is (justifiably) determined to focus on that side rather than letting the incident be shuffled into the crazed lone gunman pile of gun rights discussions that go nowhere.

The racial issue is the bigger issue, it is very much related to the guns issue, think of the various African-Americans killed for no guns, toy guns or legal guns, but this resonates more on the restrictions African-Americans STILL live under. The incident resonates with the history of church bombings and other racist incidents. It isnt just another gun incident, the racial component matters.

I hope this link works. It is a poem that resonates, for me.

Derrick Weston Brown poem

As for black churches...? Is there no concept of the oppression that black women suffer, even within the church? Told outright to wait on God to bring you a man, numbers of women vying for pastor's attention and paying a good amount in tythes, whilst they're at it? Male christian indiscretions turned a blind eye to but should a woman be deemed to sin thats it, she's an outcast?

I can't be bothered to go into it any further...suffice to say no church black or white speaks for me. The church is at the forefront because this massacre took place in a church, aside from that they'd be quietish on an issue such as this as per usual

You don't have any time for the black church. That much is plain. You go so far as to imply that if a church hadn't been targeted by the murderer then the black church in general might not have made much noise about what happened or commented on the racist culture from which this man sprang. The women who were shot in cold blood made the choice to go to the Bible study meeting.

You also engage in a nice bit of racial profiling with your 'people like you', and an unwarranted personal dig with your 'your issues' comments.

You are entitled to your opinions of course, but not to your own set of 'facts' about other posters, or anything else..

I just don't see how having guns freely available protects anyone? Is there even any worthwhile benefit, when things like this happen on a relatively regular basis?

But America won't do anything about it even when small children were killed they did nothing. Why would they bother for black people who are already treated poorly by society.

The incident resonates with the history of church bombings and other racist incidents. It isnt just another gun incident, the racial component matters.

Absolutely. And the fact that so many politicians on the right in the US are refusing to recognize that it is about race is deeply disturbing. Jeb Bush finally did, but so far, I think he is alone.

part of the minimising being oh, the family have said they forgive the killers so thats that, you keep quiet now

I remember years ago, I think it was the Enniskillen bombing and the father of one of the victims was much publicised as saying that he forgave the killers of his daughter. My mother felt that he had been put in an impossible position as now he had been quoted in the media and really forgiveness is so utterly hard. The intention to forgive is admirable, IMHO, but I don't think it is that easy. These poor families will go through a whole gamma of emotions and there will be times when they don't feel any forgiveness in their hearts.

Divide and conquer, is the way Empires are run. In the UK, people are taught to hate the immigrants, the poor, the Muslims, the disabled, and in the USA they hate the Muslims, the Mexicans and the Blacks. The world is getting very scary.

*No, I meant he lived in a culture where saying racist things did not raise an eyebrow from anyone, it went unchallenged

This man drifted through life being exactly what he was, a hateful racist, and no one around him thought it remarkable in any way.*

This is what it's like to live in the American south. And to a slightly lesser degree, many other areas. Hearing people speak like it is 1952 is not uncommon. Sure, many people have learned to mind their manners and restrict such talk to groups they feel safe in. But some people feel safe in quite a lot of groups: family, work, school, church, walking in a criwd at the mall. Just about anywhere. Often, as someone who wants to challenge, you realise that might not be advisable for your own safety. Or if you do, they respind along the lines of 'but we were all thinking it!' And you can tell you are in a room where everyone but you was thinking it. And now you dont feel safe.

Laladeepsouth:
LOL at the idea that guns flow into the US from Mexico, or Canada for that matter.

The US is actually the source of most of the guns that fall into the wrong hands in Mexico, and the result is carnage and Mexico coming very close to being a failed state.

But full marks for suggesting that increased border security might solve the problem of 300 million guns and counting in the US and the thousands of senseless murders that happen there every year. Do you have more anti-Hispanic propaganda up your sleeve? What else might extra border security accomplish I wonder...

'The only other solution is confiscating weapons/disarming the entire populace, which could only be done by creating a police state -- for lack of a better term.'
Blimey, you have it bad, don't you.
A police state?
Do you mean like all the other countries in the world that confiscate illegal items or substances from citizens?

Did you happen to read your 'information' about how the murderer got his gun himself with his birthday money on 'infowars . com'? www.infowars.com/turns-out-the-charleston-shooter-bought-gun-in-a-store-after-passing-background-check/
-- Infowars is a website run by Alex Jones:
"Jones has been the center of many controversies, including his controversial statements about gun control in the wake of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting.[8] He has accused the US government of being involved in the Oklahoma City bombing,[9] the September 11 attacks[10] and the filming of fake Moon landings to hide NASA's secret technology.[11][12] He believes that government and big business have colluded to create a New World Order through "manufactured economic crises, sophisticated surveillance tech and—above all—inside-job terror attacks that fuel exploitable hysteria".[13] Jones describes himself as a libertarian and a paleoconservative."

"New York magazine described Jones as "America's leading conspiracy theorist",[14] and the Southern Poverty Law Center describes him as "the most prolific conspiracy theorist in contemporary America."[15] When asked about these labels, Jones said that he finds himself "proud to be listed as a thought criminal against Big Brother"."
(Wiki)

His comments after the Sandy Hook massacre caused revulsion. He thinks disarming Americans would lead to gummint tyranny.

Your post isn't just an apologia for firearms. You also take a swipe at Mexico and people who want sane gun laws (as opposed to concealed carry and no background checks or insurance required and all the rest of the lunacy.)

It really is a simply problem. Nobody needs a gun, and the gummint isn't out to get anyone or create a police state.

Unfortunately the gun lobby has politicians by the short and curlies and that is what makes it 'difficult'.

Momagain A lot of people are learning and reinforcing their racism on the internet these days. It's not just the South or any other specific region of the country. It's nationwide and worldwide.

I want to add to my last post that I think it has gotten worse in recent years. The openly racist comments that people make on news sites in my community, for example, are shocking. Many people don't feel the need to keep their racists comments to themselves anymore, especially when protected by the anonymity of the internet. And this is spilling into real life and making many people who might have kept their mouths shut out of at a minimum, good manners, feel free to be openly racist.

Oh thank you mathsanxiety for saying the truth.

I live in Mexico and the U.S. actually had a policy of allowing guns, as in submachine guns, etc., to be smuggled into Mexico in a program called "Fast and Furious", that only backfired as far as US foreign policy was concerned when US citizens were also the victims of these very same guns. Meanwhile some 150,000 people have been killed in eight years and the number is rising.

Guns are not legally available in Mexico and certainly cannot be bought in Walmart here.

Yes, math, good post.

As for the pernicious racism in the USA, I used to hitch-hike through the USA and I remember the disgusting racist comments of some of the truck-drivers. In the end, I had to give up hitch-hiking because I believe that I should be grateful to anyone who gives me a lift, but I found it really hard having to be grateful to such out-and-out racists.

MistressDeeCee How in the world do you get the idea that mathanxiety is concerned only with guns and not race? Did you read all of her posts?

No, I did not state that the 300 million guns in the United States came in through our borders. That would be a ridiculous thing to say or indicate; I didn't. I'm surprised at this interpretation of what I said. I thought I indicated that, in addition to those 300 million weapons here at this present time, we have borders that are difficult to patrol and protect. Weapons do go out illegally from our borders; some also come in. That's why I stated that the border is porous. Obviously, this was misinterpreted and I did not make my point clear. I merely indicated that our borders are another problem, in that we have some laws re our borders in place that seem to be difficult to enforce. And that we have laws in place that should prevent but do not prevent these types of terrible crimes. And I know all about "Fast and Furious," a terrible, viciously stupid endeavor by the US government through two administrations (Bush and Obama) rather making the case that ill-thought out and "simple" solutions aren't effective and actually, in my opinion, as a rule can lead to some awful and deadly unintended consequences.

Guns are legal and prolific in the US now. To disarm the public would be impossible at this time without some type of massive change in the functioning of the government and a major reinterpretation of or an amendment nullifying the 2nd amendment, one of the basic rights of the Constitution. I used the term police state (as a kind of shorthand) to indicate the scale of the measures that would have to be put in place to achieve a gun-free populace in the US at the present time.

I have heard of Alex Jones (but actually haven't seen/heard him mentioned in years), and he is considered a conspiracy theorist and nut job. I don't read him or about him. I'm not understanding how attempting to explain the situation as it stands in the US and what the overall attitude is and the reasons for it (in an attempt to answer the OP's question) means that I read and follow such a person or have anything to do with his beliefs. It's interesting that I didn't foresee this particular point of attack. I do understand now that, in criticizing politicians who put forth what are only placebos, to my mind, re gun control and talking about the problem as it stands -- well, I should have realized.

We do want sane gun laws. I would say this would hinge upon whose definition of sane we'd like to follow. But actually, I thought my whole point was that there are already some very sane laws on the books that should have prevented this terrible crime but didn't. And many people don't agree that laws against concealed carry reduce gun crime. More stringent background checks and insurance are fine. Great idea! So are gun permit requirements and not entering a gun-free zone -- which the shooter just ignored. I was trying to give background. Obviously I failed.

I was attempting to explain, as the OP stated, why so many people are talking about race and not guns regarding this tragedy. Many in the US simply feel that the racism of the shooter is THE defining factor in the murder of these innocent victims, since guns are so very ubiquitous in our culture and the vast majority of gun owners never commit a crime.

Just to respond to one point - of course laws like 'don't take a gun into church' don't get obeyed by criminals. Those types of law do very little indeed. They are not 'gun control ' laws in the sense most other countries in the world would understand that term.

full marks for suggesting that increased border security might solve the problem of 300 million guns and counting in the US and the thousands of senseless murders that happen there every year.
Does that mean the 300 million guns in the United States came in through our borders. ?
I don't think so.
There seem to be quite a few people here tonight incapable of reading.

Weapons leave the US in numbers that massively outstrip any incoming weapons, and as Atenco has stated, many left, bound for Mexico, with the blessing of the US government.

Your disingenuous 'I merely indicated that our borders are another problem, in that we have some laws re our borders in place that seem to be difficult to enforce' doesn't wash -- your anti-Hispanic/immigration agenda is obvious.

I am pretty certain you did not use the term 'police state' as a shorthand for practical difficulties that might arise if guns were to be made illegal. Your post reveals your beliefs very clearly -- Hispanic immigration to the US is out of hand, guns are wonderful, and the result of not having guns will be tyranny by the government. You are also opposed to sane gun laws. 'We do want sane gun laws. I would say this would hinge upon whose definition of sane we'd like to follow.'

To disarm the public would be impossible at this time without some type of massive change in the functioning of the government and a major reinterpretation of or an amendment nullifying the 2nd amendment, one of the basic rights of the Constitution.
Only someone who honestly believed that a 'police state' was a real possibility would be fearful that there would be a 'massive change in the functioning of the government' if laws were to be changed. There is already a very efficient system of checks and balances in place.

Do you honestly believe that other states where gun ownership is illegal or seriously restricted are police states?
I would love to know your opinion on registries of pseudoephedrine purchasers and other attempts by states to limit otc purchases of legal medicines. Or the strict control of the sale of agricultural chemicals, the sort that went into the OKC bomb..

Ill-thought out solutions to problems that do not exist such as a hostile government seeking to steal the rights of citizens, exemplified by the Second Amendment and the Eighteenth, a response to a 'problem' that caused far more problems than it cured have proven that simplistic courses of action that appeal to the loudest and least intelligent blocs in the community do not work. An amendment to repeal the Second Amendment would not fall into that category.

Illegal acts by governments involving introducing weapons into foreign sovereign states is something else entirely.

You got your 'information' on Dylann Roof's birthday money from right wing sites that are an embarrassment even to the likes of Glenn Beck. The more you post, the more I am sure you are indeed familiar with the sort of site I mentioned and with the sort of theories Alex Jones spouts.

I thought my whole point was that there are already some very sane laws on the books that should have prevented this terrible crime but didn't.
...which you lifted straight from the NRA and the likes of the Jones site.

I was attempting to explain, as the OP stated, why so many people are talking about race and not guns regarding this tragedy. Many in the US simply feel that the racism of the shooter is THE defining factor in the murder of these innocent victims, since guns are so very ubiquitous in our culture and the vast majority of gun owners never commit a crime.
The vast majority of car owners never get into an accident...
Your last sentence reveals your agenda here.

The NRA is really feeling the heat right now and rightly so but attempts to merge this racist murder spree into a general discussion of gun control, and especially attempts to try to convert mention of guns into anti-Hispanic screeds, distract from the clear focus that is needed on pernicious and overt, individual and institutionalised racism that needs to take place alongside dealing with the gun lunacy.

I know that these are not "gun control" laws in the sense that most other countries in the world would understand them. That was the REASON for my (failed) attempt to give a brief overview of the situation as it stands in the United States regarding firearms -- and the reason for the emphasis on racism rather than availability of firearms.

I wasn't arguing for a point of view. Just attempting to explain the rationale. I'm out.

You're out? Because people have responded in detail to your points?