Charleston church shootings - why is everyone only talking about race?

[HootsMon]

Obviously there was a racial motivation to this outrage - the shooter has confessed as much - and god knows I have no idea what is must be like to be black in parts of the US. I'm sure they get the shitty end of the baton on many occasions.

But AIBU for being really angry that on news and social media, people seem only to be talking about the race issue - tying it in with recent police beatings, etc.- instead of the real issue, which is IMO - GUNS!

You get racist dicks in every country - America is one of the few countries that you can give one a gun for his 21st birthday.

Ah, I see math anxiety linked the Jon Stewart piece earlier

Another glaring issue that no-one is addressing - where was their god when this was happening ? Did he not care ? Was he incapable of helping ? Too busy hating gay people ?

That's the way domino, not content with pitying the families of the victims you have to make a comment about their God. Time and place love, time and a place....and this is not it. Have you considered that some of the families have expressed that their faith is keeping them going? Or does your need to "have a go" at their faith outweigh that?

OP I think you'll find that gun control is being heavily discussed at the moment - the debate surrounding this tragedy certainly isn't only being discussed in a solely race context at all.

I was. Dry moved by the families last night when I saw the footage of the ail hearing. So much sadness but also forgiveness.....they are better people than me.

Do you want to engage with the thread you started, OP?

But the issue is race. Why is there a still a black church? Why are black colleges still in existence? Surely they should've gone at the same time as the white churches/schools etc?

The USA is a mad, bad and dangerous place. The news channels are very poor and rarely report on world issues. The unquestionable American Way is indoctrinated throughout the population and the worship of the armed forces at every event I've ever been to certainly raises more than an eyebrow.

I want to try and address domino's point because I know it is something a lot of people will struggle with.
Being a Christian does not mean you have a right for everything in your life to go swimmingly all the time. It doesn't make you exempt from fear and pain and grief. What it does give you though is hope in the knowledge that God loves you and wants you to be with Him. I pray for things to go well for my family, for people I know, for people I don't know but when they don't that isn't because God has failed or because He's chosen to make people suffer. People suffer because this is a fallen and sinful world. That's why Jesus came. By sacrificing himself he ensured that we can have the hope of the reunion with God.
I'm sure lots of people will read this and think 'how can you believe in a God like that' 'What guarantee do you have that the whole thing isn't a con' and the answer is none really. I choose to believe what Jesus said. I choose to believe in something beyond what I can see and hear. I choose to believe that God's power in my life and that of my loved ones may not look like what I want it to. I choose to believe all that and that's what faith is. It's an act of will that you have no evidence for.
I've read that the man accused has said he almost didn't do it because they were so nice to him. Knowing from my own church what bible studies and prayer groups are like, this particular thought almost breaks my heart. I'm sure the people murdered were delighted to see a young white man come to join them. They will have welcomed him because that's what Christians do. We should try to be as openhearted and welcoming to all, because all are welcome. And if that doesn't sound like Christians you know then all I can say is that sometimes we fall short. But the Christians of Charleston didn't fall short. They welcomed their murderer and that's why their families are showing him forgiveness. When somebody's made a sacrifice like that, albeit unknowingly, and shown the love that Jesus taught us to show, well you can't respond with anger and hate. The families are choosing to forgive. It's an act of will. They aren't better people than any of us but they are living their faith and that of their friends and relatives. Domino asked where God was. He was right there and He still is.

Thank you spring
You've expressed what I believe too and very beautifully!

I agree. I think gun ownership there should only be legal at 25 with a full psychiatric evaluation. But .. if hell froze over & the US implemented that what about the people who already have them? Are they exempt, do you try and make them reapply? People in rural areas like the deep South have culturally had guns around for hunting etc since childhood so you are fighting that 'normality' ethos....

Every time they have a shooting it seems to be a late teen/early 20's maladjusted 'loner' male. There are some questions there re how they bring up their children in the US. Giving him (an acknowledged to be struggling with life loner that his family worried about) a gun for his birthday as this boy's Dad did, is a repeat of the US teacher 2yrs back who gave her son with mental health issues shooting lessons: he shot her & half her class..

Yes of course, 7/7 was about bombs, just bombs, as were all bombings in 1970s/1980s, just bombs, if they had been banned then... Oh and the Yorkshire ripper, if we had banned knives and hammers he wouldn't have killed would he?

See, I never get it when people make this argument. Yes, knives and hammers can kill people. However, when they do they rarely kill large groups of people at one time. Because many unarmed people can often overpower one man with a knife. And because a far lower percentage of wounds are fatal. And because you have to get a hell of a lot closer to your victim. These implements also have a primary purpose, other than to kill or threaten to kill.

Bombs. Well, yes, we devote quite a lot of police intelligence to preventing bombs. Of course illegality isn't the only issue - illegality and enforcement. And actually, there are few bomb massacres in most countries because bombs are hard and technical to build, unless you want to be a suicide bomber.

Just because there are other ways to kill people doesn't mean that one of the primary reasons these massacres are so common and so successful isn't the easy availability of firearms.

Switzerland is such a different country in almost every way that I don't see many helpful comparisons with their gun laws.

there is still a black church because white churches do not welcome black people. the murderer sat through an hour long bible class before killing people. a black person could never sit in a white church. the black person would be invited to leave before he or she got to sit down.

if God is so fabulous, why does he allow black people to be the permanent victim of racists in America? this isn't the only time black churches have been attacked by racists. why do black people have to spend their time forgiving murderers, generation after generation? how sweet of you to be impressed that the black Christians welcomed that piece of shit into their church. white Christians would not welcome a black person into their church.

That is why I cannot bear to watch Fox News.
When this happened, i immediately told my Dh that Fox News would focus on the fact that the gunman was mentally ill , rather than admit that it was a terrorist attack motivated by racism.
When a black or Asian man commits this type of atrocity; they are part of a terrorist group and thus the so called 'black or Asian community' have to sort their 'youth' out .
However, when a white man kills a group of black people , it has nothing to do with race, he is 'just ' mentally ill.

Great post Northern lurker

no it is not a great post. under the guise of Christianity, black people should continue to eat shit while white people abuse them.

So what do you suggest creighton?

A relative bought this gun as a present for him (its been reported as his dadband uncle, so not sure which). I assume they knew him well, and if he has a mental illness (as suggested), or is just an oddball character, or into drink and drugs, why would they do this?

I suggest that white people stop condoning racism towards other people. it is up to white people to challenge each other's behaviour. I suggest that black people stop turning the other cheek and forgiving people who abuse them. this may be impossible as they are surrounded by white people who are a permanent danger to them who are backed up by law and custom (the confederate flag on state buildings!)

Switzerland is such a different country in almost every way that I don't see many helpful comparisons with their gun laws.

Well, I would say it's those cultural differences that are the reason why you don't hear of massacres like this in Switzerland, rather than the presence or absence of guns.

My point is, this is a race issue. The perpetrator wanted to kill a lot of black people, and he found a way to do so. If guns had not been available, he could have used a vehicle or a bomb. He would still have acheived his aim.

He may have used a vehicle. It is unlikely he would have achieved nearly as many victims. A bomb- less certain he'd have managed that unless willing to be a suicide bomber.

Regarding Switzerland, of course it is relevant. Switzerland is the anomaly - a country with massively high gun ownership but low gun crime. That is because of the unique societal structure and the police/army regime. The US can't, and frankly doesn't want, to emulate that. Switzerland isn't a helpful comparison for the pro or the anti guns lobby I don't think.

Of course it a race issue. It's also an issue of male violence. It's also an issue of guns. It is more than one thing.

It is mental illness. This particular mentally ill person has focussed on black people as his target, just as the mentally ill people who are drawn to Isis currently are focussing on anyone who is not muslim. Had this person been born into a muslim country, I'm sure he might have found 'jihad' to be an outlet for his illness.

It is a gun issue and it is a race issue.
These people were murdered because of their skin colour. This is the horrendous point. To pretend it is not important is insulting. Racism doesn't go away by pretending racism doesn't exist.

And other issues too- I meant to agree with penguins.

Americans don't see what's wrong with guns. And until they do nothing is going to change. IMHO.

It is mental illness. This particular mentally ill person has focussed on black people as his target, just as the mentally ill people who are drawn to Isis currently are focussing on anyone who is not muslim. Had this person been born into a muslim country, I'm sure he might have found 'jihad' to be an outlet for his illness.

Are you saying that people join Isis because they are mentally ill. Or that some mentally ill people join Isis?

I am sure it is not what you intended, but your phrasing makes it sound like you think mentally ill people are generally predisposed to be murderous and violent.

And the fact remains that a violently delusional mentally ill person who didn't have easy access to a gun is unlikely to have overwhelmed such a large group of people and managed to kill 9 people. It does happen (there was a Japanese attack in about 2008 in Akihabara. Though no idea if mental illness was involved) but is very rare.