Charleston church shootings - why is everyone only talking about race?

[HootsMon]

Obviously there was a racial motivation to this outrage - the shooter has confessed as much - and god knows I have no idea what is must be like to be black in parts of the US. I'm sure they get the shitty end of the baton on many occasions.

But AIBU for being really angry that on news and social media, people seem only to be talking about the race issue - tying it in with recent police beatings, etc.- instead of the real issue, which is IMO - GUNS!

You get racist dicks in every country - America is one of the few countries that you can give one a gun for his 21st birthday.

That made me well up too. That the hatred could be so strong as to override the humanity.

Seneca, did any of those black people turn a gun on you after spending time with you in your church? black americans should stop 'reaching out' to the toxic whites in that country.

Guns are being discussed too. I think the real issue as you said is actually the fact that these poor people have suffered a truly tragic and pointless death for nothing

A man in Austria today has run his car into pedestrians then left the vehicle to stab more people. One of which was a four year old child. People will be monsters with or without guns, they'll find a way to hurt others regardless. I'm not sure if I agree with gun laws, I know that in places where they're legal, there is much more gun crime but it does give a way for innocent people to defend themselves

Yes there will always be maniacs intent on killing as many people as possible. But the number of victims tends to be much lower when the weapon being used is anything other than a gun.

Innocent people very rarely actually use lawfully owned guns to defend themselves. There was a study out about a week ago.

Oh I agree Mitzy. Downside is even if guns were banned, they'd still end up in the hands of those that want to murder lots of people

Determined criminals yes. Angry teenagers, not so much.

Though yes. There is the issue that there are far too many already in circulation to get back.

No thats not what I meant, i.e the pregnant woman recently stabbed to death in front of her kids, the twitterati isnt focusing as heavily on the sexism/misogyny

I would say that the six women murdered in Emanuel AME church were victims of racism and sexism. They were killed by a young man with a massive sense of entitlement.

Fuji racism and violence towards black people isn't something that has just sprung up and especially not in America. So for you to imply that people are fighting for the right to be treated as human beings utterly disrespectful.
Especially since you don't even touch on the sexual violence towards black women that was a large part of the torture and degradation of an entire people.

dominogocatgo's point is the 1st thing I thought about actually. & it kind of ties in with another poster way up there said about creighton seeming to take it personally...well as an African you do take certain things personally. I wouldn't deign to tell a Jewish person for instance that because they didnt personally know everybody touched by the evil of the Holocaust, they shouldnt feel for them in a deep way

Im tired of seeing black people down on their knees praying to a white man in the sky and believing he is their salvation. Yes, it seems bitter irony to a lot of us that they were shot down in the midst of praying. You CANNOT help but think it, and it is to do with the way Jesus was "introduced" to Africans and the 400 year African holocaust that followed...and the way that the bible was used to further subjugate enslaved Africans.

Its what a lot of us think but aren't supposed to say, isn't it? Perhaps it doesn't sound "pretty" or "respectful" enough. But rather than being given room to think it yet again we are told "oh you can't think/say that", its not appropriate now. As if because we think that, we have no sympathy for the victims. Yet your mind is all over the place when you hear of a major racist incident yet again. & when you know the history of that particular church you just think...again? How many more attacks there? It dates right back to the 1800s

So, when will it be appropriate? Who decides when and if its ok to think like that in terms of the Jesus thing? Things happen and you think why? How long are Africans going to be under siege? Its never allowed to just be about mass, widescale racism and prejudice endangering us, but it IS about that.

Again, a man or woman with a gun won't necessarily say ok I have a gun Im going to kill black people. A person with a racial motive will. & thats what we struggle with. That simply due to your race and skin colour, you are a very visible hate target

I understand exactly where dominogocatgo is coming from, and why.

Im glad to see the majority of commenters on this thread are pretty much understanding, though. Its usually that way, thankfully.

On the other side of the scale I don't want to be told how or when to react to this tragedy. Its horrible. I could cry for those victims, Im shit scared for my relatives especially the males, who are many, and live in America.

Its akin to a double edged sword - on the 1 hand the supposed law-keepers appear to have an execution without trial policy on black men. On the other, very quickly after a white male has shot dead a black congregation he is described as "soft-voiced" (what does that have to do with anything?!), and a boy. At 21. Yet Michael Brown, an 18 year old was described as a man, and a thug

I wish people would openly talk to each other in society be they black, white, whatever, lay this out on the table. Because a level of racism that means black people can be thought of in such low fashion should be no part of civilized society. I think that society encourages it, even Obama as President of the United States, and his wife, are racially mocked.

SanityClause, yes, cars kill.

So we have mandatory auto insurance, and drivers' licences, and you have to be able to prove you have sound enough vision to get a licence, and you also have to be able to prove you have insurance.

The gun lobby in the US is against all sane measures designed to ensure that guns do not get into the wrong hands. They are against background checks, and certainly would baulk at the idea that insurance should be a prerequisite for gun ownership.

AcrossThePond, it's an observation of mine that the elements that constitute American machismo and have a lot to do with male insecurity. Yes it is a phenomenon that can be seen everywhere, but the particular way it expresses itself in America is different from other places. There is the irrational attitude to the 'gummint' and its evil designs, coexisting incongruently with hyper patriotism, and neanderthal attitudes to women that jostle with attitudes to black people and all the baggage that goes along with that -- opinions on welfare, on capital punishment, discipline in schools and more.

'There are some questions there re how they bring up their children in the US. Giving him (an acknowledged to be struggling with life loner that his family worried about) a gun for his birthday as this boy's Dad did, is a repeat of the US teacher 2yrs back who gave her son with mental health issues shooting lessons: he shot her & half her class..'
I agree with Sazzle's thoughts here. There is a culture associated with masculinity in the US that is different altogether from what is considered normal elsewhere.

SpringSprang -- 'Why is there a still a black church? Why are black colleges still in existence? Surely they should've gone at the same time as the white churches/schools etc?'

Because only in the black church can black people feel they are truly able to freely express themselves. The black church has traditionally provided black leadership and has been the centre of the black community, providing social services, amenities such as life insurance when white insurance companies would not, providing for funerals, allowing for networking, and above all, encouraging specifically black fortitude in the face of the huge odds posed by institutionalised and individual racism.

Black communities would not be able to raise up leaders elsewhere, thanks to their secondary position in wider society. Black colleges perform a similar role, and have been available to the black community for over a hundred years when the vast majority of other third level opportunities were closed to them. It is a rational choice on the part of the black community to keep up the black churches and universities. In the case of the little storefront churches in impoverished inner city areas, racial segregation in American cities plays a part in it too, but for middle class black people who do not live in those areas, long-established and prospering mainstream congregations play a very important role in the community.

They are still in existence because of a mixture of pride in the tradition and acknowledgement that they are still needed -- like women, black voices tend to be relegated to the sidelines when black people try to be heard in wider society. Worse, problems are treated as 'black issues' when in fact these issues are central to what is wrong. Rape, childcare, access to family planning services, etc. are treated as 'women's issues', while racism and racial injustice are treated as a 'black issue'. Thus the problems are marginalised.

Creighton -- 'there is still a black church because white churches do not welcome black people...a black person could never sit in a white church. the black person would be invited to leave before he or she got to sit down'

This is a gross misstatement. While black people are welcome elsewhere and while white people most certainly are welcome in black churches, closing up the 'black church' would mean for the black community a loss of voice and a loss of one of the only institutions in black society that remained and remains unbroken by the oppression. There is nothing else to fill the gap.

Why should black people forget that they are black or that they are not faced with issues and concerns and experiences and a community memory that people in the pews next to them are not faced with? The black community well understands that integration into other church communities would involve setting aside the specifically black experience of life in the USA.

NorthernLurker, what a great post.

I find it astonishing that someone (clearly white) could come onto this thread and admonish a black person - actually tell them off! - for their reaction to this tragedy.

I mean, it sums it up really, doesn't it.

northernlurker's post commends the black Christians for welcoming their murderer and would be oppressor into their church. this is a typical white reaction to black suffering, black people must be noble when white people are abusing them and accept any atrocity visited on them, because it will all be alright when they are dead. do white people accept a never ending stream of crap from people thinking that it will all be alright when they are dead?
why doesn't God spread the suffering to include white americans?

MistressDeeCee it will be appropriate to feel angry and bitter when white people give you permission to feel that way, until then, keep your head bowed and be respectful to your oppressors.

creighton, this is NOT how I read Northernlurker's post.

No Creighton, it commends the choice of love. Love is always a choice, and can be chosen by everyone, whether they believe in a deity or not. Sometimes love is the most difficult choice.

it will be appropriate to feel angry and bitter when white people give you permission to feel that way, until then, keep your head bowed and be respectful to your oppressors

creighton on that point, I agree

Look at this thread - you mentioned black people not being welcome in white churches and that point alone is being pounced on - whether or not people think its true there is a wider dialogue in whats been said, but that aspect seems to be ignored. This point about the church not being welcoming MUST be laboured.

Personally I dpn't care which churches are welcoming and which aren't, I wouldnt be in any of them - and of course there are churches in America that don't feel particularly welcome to black people. Who feels it, knows it.

I find it astonishing that someone (clearly white) could come onto this thread and admonish a black person - actually tell them off! - for their reaction to this tragedy. I mean, it sums it up really, doesn't it.

That I agree with too, TheDowagerCuntess. I still can't work out from whats being said what the right and correct way to feel actually is.

To be honest I find so-called liberals to be the absolute worst, at times. This thing of feeling able to tell us how to feel. Its not unexpected so doesn't bother me in that way, but what I do feel is its a real shame. Black people don't need their feelings about years and years of racism, prejudice, discrimination. We already know. We can't even let that out without the kumbaya thing starting.

Its patronising to keep on pulling up a person who obviously feels angry and upset that yet again, black people are targetted and the minimising started almost immediately after the incident. part of the minimising being oh, the family have said they forgive the killers so thats that, you keep quiet now.

Ridiculous.

ahhh, the choice of love. it is a very difficult and underused choice for white americans.

However - personally Im not asking or saying that non-Africans should understand. Some will, and will emphasise without that inbuilt superiority cloak - or "caping" as its called in America - to come into play. & some just won't. But again, I don't feel there's anything to ask them for.

What I do feel is that if a black man or woman is talking about a fear, anger, despair, even paranoia that they feel about racism then sorry, they don't have to be put in their place and told how to feel. I don't listen to any of that, it doesn't help me live my day to day life...I read it, and thats it.

As for black churches...? Is there no concept of the oppression that black women suffer, even within the church? Told outright to wait on God to bring you a man, numbers of women vying for pastor's attention and paying a good amount in tythes, whilst they're at it? Male christian indiscretions turned a blind eye to but should a woman be deemed to sin thats it, she's an outcast?

I can't be bothered to go into it any further...suffice to say no church black or white speaks for me. The church is at the forefront because this massacre took place in a church, aside from that they'd be quietish on an issue such as this as per usual

Seriously? You think that is the point of mentioning the families' response?

part of the minimising being oh, the family have said they forgive the killers so thats that, you keep quiet now.

Is that the only thing you saw in what I wrote, mathanxiety? seriously...?

Yes, for some comments here I do feel thats the point of mentioning the family's response. FWIW Ive said so already

Please understand that I certainly have not tried to tell anyone how to feel. I did try to address something that I perceived to be a statement of fact that, based on my experience, I know to be untrue and that I feel is an unfair characterization of Americans of faith.

my intention wasnt to be disrespectful i was specifically talking about how the twitterati specifically focus on certain parts of crime because its trending ir something instead of other aspects. although its not okay to twist that into 'youre dismissing the suffering of black people' wherever that came from its just you'll see things on twitter,tumblr and buzzfeed about combatting homophobua,racism than lets say women murdered by d&v perps or the fact tgat a child us killed by the hands of their parents every 10 days or crimes against the elderly etc its not as prevalent on social media.

Not the only thing, by any means.

Your opinion on the experience of women in the black church is one that was not shared by the women who were murdered or they perhaps would not have been there at the Bible study meeting. And for better or for worse, the families of the victims have a right to feel the way they feel about the murderer and to make the choice they have made, or to make the statement they have made.

I may be mistaken here, but I feel you are criticising their choice.