Can we talk about the personal attacks on AIBU?

[taleoftwosatellites]

Inspired by a thread that got deleted earlier today, but not about that thread in particular...

Back when I joined MN (2008) AIBU was a place for robust discussion. People weren't shy to point out when they thought others were being unreasonable.

The difference then, IMO, was that people didn't resort to character assassinations of the OP to make their point.

There was a famous thread in classics where an OP wanted to take his supersoaker to a (non supersoaker) birthday party. EVERYONE responded that she was being unreasonable but she wouldn't accept it. The thread went on forever, here

Here are five responses from the first page of that thread:

"um. i think id say no. soakers are only funny if everybody has them. i think it might all end in tears if only 2 out of the party have them."

"I think it would be very wrong to take it. It it were a water pistol party and everyone were taking them then fine. If it were your DS's party then fine otherwise I'd be bloody pissed off if some kid turned up at my kid's party and soaked everyone."

"no no no no!!!!! you have to talk to your boy and say that you are really sorry but you have changed your mind and it really isn't a good idea at all. trust me-it will end in tears if he takes it."

"(and my DS is 8 too - he's old enough to go to a party and not need to take something with him. "

"I think it may be sensible to leave the super soaker at home. It will end in tears. Your DS will survive without it."

Strong opinions but no personal attacks on the OP.

Contrast with a thread from AIBU of today:

"When you are not so grumpy go round and explain how you feel and they might just switch off the light or even change the bulbs for dimmer ones."

"It's called living around other people. Stop complaining."

"Tell them (nicely, when you're not so grumpy) "

"If you came round and asked me this, I'd have you down as batshit crazy neighbour. "

"It's a household light. Houses have them and people use them. Stop being such a drama queen precious princess"

Does anyone notice the difference in tone? Is it that MN has grown so big that personal attacks just aren't deleted anymore. Or have people stopped reporting them?

I think AIBU is quite useful for getting a perspective you may not have considered before but it's painful trawling through the mud-slinging just to get to the point.

It's almost become the culture to tack a personal attack on to the end of your point of view? AIBU used to be a robust exchange of views, now it's just a goady troll-fest.

What's it all about?

YANBU. It just doesn't add anything to the world. Perhaps it's not PA but it's actually fairly dull and tiresome and it reduces a lot of people's honesty as they bend over backwards to be ULTRA moderate in what they're posting to avoid this sort of response. It's just not a lot of fun.

Buxton - I think the nastiness is only really in AIBU. I think there are people who don't really venture outside AIBU, and are so safely corralled in there. Don't lose the MN faith :).

I do think at times people are too quick to throw around the troll accusations. If I am completely honest.
Just because someone does not agree with me or thinks the same as me does not make them a troll and vice versa.
I'm a big girl I can take that not everyone will agree with what I'm saying with me running crying to MNHQ

Without not with

Yanbu. I love the super soaker thread; but I'd never dare to say some of the things posters were saying on there, now, for fear of being rounded on. It seemed a much lighter site then.

Mobile 'phones hVe a part to play. It's hard to be reasonable, giving a long piece of thoughtful advice, when it needs to be typed with a finger.

I noticed the change in length of responses too. And there was a nice use of the subjunctive in your super soaker examples. You don't see that in AIBU so much these days.

I've only been here seven-ish years. I'm pretty thick skinned so I have a hard time deciphering a personal attack as, invariably, it's what's running through my mind anyway. Made worse by the very fine line on what constitutes a PA by MHNQ (think they do an awesome job and appreciate the difficulty).

I can "word" a reply on the right side of the guidelines but it's far easier to tell it like it is and I'd rather be told straight. But I appreciate it can be hurtful to some.

And if anyone disagrees they can go fuck themselves

I remember being savaged in AIBU over five years ago.

i find with all the name changers, banned trolls popping up all over the place, the trouble makers just line their friends up to derail threads tbh.
I'm convinced this is where a lot of the nasty posts and/or bullying comes from.
It seems to be increasing too, even since the last few years i've been on here.
There's telling people straight and being downright sneery.
If you are thick skinned they try even harder to have a go.

I'm rather new to netmums/AIBU and I have been quite surprised at some of the more aggressive responses, particularly against men. However, there are some fantastic replies - supportive, empathetic and genuinely moving. Also, some very witty and clever responses, which makes me think that the world hasn't completely gone to hell in a handbasket

Actually, having read that epic (and most enjoyable super-soaker thread) I'd respectfully point out that for every measured reply you've copied and pasted as an example, there were plenty that were somewhat different in tone. The sort of tone that I suspect you'd describe as "a personal attack". Like these:

are you thick?
you have a "livewire" equals pain in the arse son who doesn't behave and doesn't get invited to anyones parties.
It is a wind up, no one is this dense.
i wouldn't invite your son to any parties or playdates either
YOU ARE CRAZY/WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU/YOU ARE DRIVING ME INSANE/IT IS LIKE TALKING TO MY 2 YEAR OLD

I'm not accusing those posters of making personal attacks either. But I am suggesting that you may have a slightly rosy view of How Things Were.

I've seen character assassination on MN, people trawling through a poster's previous posts for any information they can use against them (eg one poster had suffered from depression and on another thread was told she was not qualified to give her opinion as she was mentally ill).

Sometimes this place is just an attack-zone. Other times, there's a wealth of kindness shared. If you post here, you take your chances.

I think it's spread into chat A LOT. I never post in AIBU anymore.

My own threads obviously...

thecat that's a really good point about mobiles/tablets etc I also wish I knew what the subjunctive means but I still can't figure it out even after looking it up on wikipedia

"and if anyone doesn't like that they can go fuck themselves" [grin grin]

Thinking back over time, though, there seem to be fewer breast v bottle threads, wohm v sahm threads and natural childbirth v CS threads than there were. Or that may very well be that I just never bother clicking on those these days...

summerisle that's a fair point, I was trying to point out how threads these days go straight to full on abuse, there's no exasperated build up anymore. It's just...pounce.

I have to say the examples you used were mild compared with some of the comments I have seen on these pages.

What I dislike is if anyone dares to ask for the nastiness to be toned down, then a chorus of 'oh fuck off back to netmums hunny' and 'this is aibu so fucking get a grip' begins. And everyone obviously has to join in.

But I guess this is aibu, and that's how it is at the moment. We've got a choice. The wit and humour here can be fabulous, so I stick around, but I do find some of the baiting and deliberate bitchiness quite bullying and unpleasant sometimes. Maybe I should fuck off to net huns, who knows?

I was repeatedly verbally abused, for no reason, on a thread by one poster some time ago (it was reported and deleted), and no-one spoke up and tried to help rein the bullying cow in. Everyone read it, let it carry on.

It made me silently vow that if I see that happen to someone else, I'll lend a bit of public support. Unless they're being a fucking twat themselves.

That precious princess post is actually my post on another thread.

I'm sure the poster I was talking to is quite lovely but considering demanding your neighbours turn off a normal household light to accomadate your wish to not have blinds so you can wake up as the sun rises and filters through your windows is a bit drama queen precious princessey. Not the poster but her behaviour.

If I was intending to make a personal attack those would not have been the words I would use and I wouldn't have been referring to behaviour

:o at missing the "nice use of the subjunctive", catfromjapan. Definitive proof that it's all gone to hell.

"Netmums , fluff!

Oh I dunno, I've been on a bf/ff thread this week and it hasn't descended into verbal tennis yet Quite heartening really.

I think anyone should spend a bit of time reading AIBU when they first join and if they don't like the feel of it, defer to the hunnyness that is Netmums and have a ticker tape parade.

Or Bounty, though that doesn't have a debates section anymore. Not that I had a hand in it's demise. No siree. Not I.

Shakey - that's interesting that a bf/ff thread hasn't got out of hand. See I think people have become more tolerant in that area...so it's not all bad..

fluff you appear to be very lost! Netmums?!

The general level of debate here has fallen into the basement in recent years.

The posting style, generally speaking, used to be pithy, clever and witty. I remember agonising over the wording of a post, as some posters set the bar for replies very high.

Now it's a bit lowest-common-denominator. Posters aren't as clever or witty, they're just unnecessarily mean a lot of the time. I think the standard of posts has generally taken a dramatic turn for the worse.

Tone has changed, I agree.

People er 'sound' much less intelligent these days. They don't seem to be able to simply disagree with the op, they've got to kick the op in the head at the same time.

I agree that wit has had a decline, more's the pity. Maybe I just don't see the threads but some had me creased. There was one where a romantic-type-Mills and Boone-esque story was being written post for post. A proper bodice ripper parody. Ye Gads it was fucking hilarious.

Anyone remember?