To think there are a lot of misconceptions about terminating a pregnancy

[fiveacres]

Obviously, about abortion, which is a contentious issue for some.

I am approaching the third due date of the pregnancy I terminated in the autumn of 2011 at 9 weeks.

I was a very pious sort once, who believed that abortions were morally wrong. i admit that freely. I still do feel that the best option is not to be in that position in the first place.

However, although I do sometimes think about it, I don't regret it. I've been pregnant twice since so it hasn't affected my fertility.

I paid privately. I did not have any counselling - I was undecided when I went for the initial appointment but I have to say it was very much 'assumed' that I wanted to terminate. The record of the abortion is not in my medical file.

You don't have to give a reason, although they did press me to have the implant, which I refused. They did do a scan, which was a bit upsetting.

It did not hurt. I was warned I would bleed a lot but I didn't. My periods came back in 6 weeks.

You are in a room with a LOT of other women after the procedure, which is upsetting.

Other than that, I felt good after having it done, relieved, happy, mainly relieved.

I do have the odd flash of guilt. I wouldn't do it again.

But, I was reading another thread and it crossed my mind a lot of people do not really seem to know what having a termination is like. My experience may be typical or it may not be, I don't know, but it would be interesting to see what the experiences of others are to try to dispel or to address some of the myths that surround this difficult but sometimes necessary issue.

I think of it more as having personhood.

A baby once born has personhood and all the rights that go along with that. A foetus in the womb does not. That doesn't mean that it isn't loved, or wanted, or its loss grieved (all of which may be true in many cases).

Does that mean you do or don't think the baby is alive in the womb?

Or do you mean it's a life but not a person? This would still mean that terminating is ending a life?

Yes I do think the foetus is alive in the womb. But it doesn't have personhood until it's born. Terminating it is ending a 'life', but I personally am able to accept that. Like the post upthread, I can distinguish between unborn human 'life' (without personhood) and born human 'life' (full personhood rights). Hope this makes sense.

Of course, this is just my philosophical view - others may view it differently, and that's fine.

Thank you WonderingMistrels. The thing is, I respect everyone's right here to have an opinion. I don't agree with many of those opinions but I don't insult people for having them nor do I 'dismiss people's experiences' or try to 'be unpleasant to them' (As I have been falsely accused of on this thread). I realise that we have different opinions on the matter but for understanding where I'm coming from.

Winter, try to insult me and make false accusations all you like. I can see through your bluster and you didn't answer the questions either.

last user, no I haven't. Are you going to ask everyone who hasn't to leave the thread?

Lucy, as I've said before, I don't dislike women. I am a woman, I spend most of my day helping women. I may even have helped you or someone close to you. Thinking that life begins before birth and liking women are not mutually exclusive.

more for you writer.

It does make sense. Sorry if I seemed antagonistic, it wasn't intentional, I was genuinely just curious about understanding your views

I guess it depends on whether or not people value 'personhood' which is more of a legal concept more than 'life' which is more scientific. I think some people try to argue that they are the same thing though.

That's ok Writer, I didn't view it as antagonistic

I think it's interesting to think about where our personal philosophy sits on all of this. So long as this personal view doesn't try to control/limit what other women do. There are lots of posts on this thread saying basically 'I would never have an abortion myself but I uphold women's right to make that choice for themselves', and I think that's a perfectly fine position to hold.

None of us value 'life' at its most basic concept 100%.

I think when it comes to terminations it's easy to say "I'd never do it" but unless you've been in that situation how can you ever really know what you would do?

I have previously said her my sister had two late terminations, one at 22 weeks and one at 24, and I often find it hard to believe she's done it as my mind is saying, "It was an actual baby when she did that" but at the same time I fully understand her reasons and I do believe she made the right decision for her.

I could easily say, "I'd never terminate at they stage" but the truth is that until I am in that situation they're just words. I'm on medication that could have affected the development of my baby in utero and I had to see a Specialist Consultant for my twenty week scan to see if things were ok. I was dreading it. Thankfully everything was absolutely fine but I do wonder what I would have done if there were problems with the baby. Would I have terminated? Thankfully I wasn't put in that position but I easily could have been.

It's a situation you can't imagine being in and a decision you can ever envision yourself having to make but until you are faced with it only then can you really know what you would or wouldn't do.

Yes I totally agree with that. And every individual situation is different, even if the objective circumstances appear similar. That's why supporting the right of women to choose what's right for them is important.

I don't think anyone has a very good answer about the point at which "personhood" occurs, and perhaps no one ever will. I think some ethicists (e.g., Peter Singer) have argued coherently that purely in terms of philosophical concepts of true "personhood"/self-conscious awareness, infanticide should be legal for some time after birth as well.
But if a foetus/newborn baby is absolutely loved and represented in other humans' minds as a fully formed "person", then at what point does this mean they should be treated as such no matter what their own level of experience/awareness is?

Someone actually addressed that point very well on another thread. It was basically saying that you shouldn't assume people are only 'fair weather' pro-lifers. Yes, some may very well change their mind when they are in that situation but for other people abortion will not ever be something they consider - for any reason.

some may very well change their mind when they are in that situation but for other people abortion will not ever be something they consider - for any reason

This is basically totally untestable. No one will ever experience all the most extreme situations possible.

Pen fold - but why should life/'personhood' be based on other people's perception/value of you? How could we apply that idea to unwanted babies/children?

Yes, I've read the argument for infanticide before. It's very interesting. I've previously asked people's opinions about it on these types of threads but typically you get accused of being hysterical about the 'poor Ickle baaaaaabies' or saying that abortion is infanticide rather than a well thought out response.

Penfolds, I think you're questioning people's beliefs here. Many people are pro-life for religious reasons and they just could not consider terminating. It's kind of like saying that Jehovah's witnesses only say that they won't have have a blood transfusion until they actually need one. Some may change their minds but many don't.

When I was pregnant I had scans at 7wks, 8wks, 10wks, 12wks, 16wks, 20wks and then every four weeks up until he was born.

I remember crying when I saw my 'blob' at 7 weeks because I was overwhelmed at seeing the reality of my pregnant. However, it wasn't until my 12 week scan that I really thought, "There's a little person inside me." Even though the scan at 10wks showed an obvious human form it wasn't until the 12wk scan that I really grasped that I had a life inside of me.

When it's a wanted pregnancy I imagine every woman considers herself to have a life, a real baby inside of her, hence why I find it upsetting to then think of a baby's worth being simply disregarded when it's an unwanted pregnancy.

If a foetus/pregnancy/baby is considered a life then surely it should always have that status however the mother feels about the pregnancy?

It's a really confusing concept to me.

bumblymummy - I get the impression you could never see yourself having a termination?

Can I ask though what you would do if you found yourself in this hypothetical situation?

You are told at 18 weeks pregnant that there is a severe risk to your health and that if you continued with the pregnancy there could be severe complications, even death as the worst case scenario. You are also told it's very likely the baby would die. Would you still continue the pregnancy?

And what if you had two other young children at home? Would you potentially make them lose their mother by continuing the pregnancy as opposed to you terminating?

None of this is trying to be argumentative, I'm just genuinely curious as to how black and white things are.

Pen fold - but why should life/'personhood' be based on other people's perception/value of you? How could we apply that idea to unwanted babies/children?

Well, I'm not sure I have a thorough answer for this bumbley. But if, say, infanticide after birth were not morally wrong for its effect on the baby (because the baby has not reached "personhood"/self-awareness), then why is it wrong except for its effect on others?

If you apply that logic, writer, then why are do we give human life such utter priority?

Humans are actually pretty routinely awful. So why do we get special dispensation such that our life is considered 'sacrosanct'? Why aren't other living creatures afforded the same status.

Do we only allow this for ourselves, because we are human? Why are humans more important than cows, sheep, pigs and all other animals that are routine killed and eaten?

In India, cows are considered sacred, and so they're not killed. Here (in your country and mine), they're killed and eaten.

So it's the same, with some foetuses being wanted and some not. Humans we inconsistent like that.

"When it's a wanted pregnancy I imagine every woman considers herself to have a life, a real baby inside of her"

Actually, I don't think you can generalize that one either.

On all of my (much wanted) pregnancies I was excited because I had a potential life inside me and I looked forward to meeting my new child at the end of the process. The further along the pregnancy went the more "real" that future seemed and the more I felt like I was going to have a baby, but I really don't remember thinking that I had "a real baby inside" until I was quite far gone and being kicked in the ribs. And I definitely don't think I'd have that sense of excited potential and looking forward if the pregnancy wasn't wanted.

Oh, and I miscarried my second pregnancy at 12 weeks and while I was very sad because of that, I was sad because of that loss of potential, that imagined future, I in no way felt as distraught as I'd imagine I'd be if one of my already born children had died, or if I'd had a later stillbirth. I remember actually kind of beating myself up about how un-bereaved I felt, until I talked to other women who'd had miscarriages (both on here and in RL) and realized what a range of emotions women have around pregnancy loss, all valid.

Penfolds, I think you're questioning people's beliefs here.

I don't think so. I'm just saying that the ways people's beliefs translate into actions in desperate situations are unpredictable. Sure, some people won't change their minds, but you can't tell which these people are.

fejoia - I see a baby in the womb as just as much a human as a living person. Hence why I struggle with the concept of late abortion in particular. I find it hard to get my head around the idea of a baby being euthanised and it not being an issue.

leedy - sorry to hear about your miscarriage I'm glad you managed to realise that your emotions were not 'wrong'. If this thread has taught me anything it's that as people it can be so important to receive the validation that our reactions to certain experiences are actually quite normal.

When it's a wanted pregnancy I imagine every woman considers herself to have a life, a real baby inside of her, hence why I find it upsetting to then think of a baby's worth being simply disregarded when it's an unwanted pregnancy

You imagine wrong. By no means does every woman or mother feel like at all. I've had many losses of wanted pregnancies. I (and many others in the same situation I know) soon come to think that being pregnant does not necessarily lead to having a baby, and that at best its a potential life, a potential baby.
I'm heavily pregnant now and I don't think of this foetus as being alive in a real sense. I hope very much it will be born alive and well and I'm very much looking forward to having a baby, but I don't think of it yet as a baby.
My feelings on this are just as valid as anyone elses.

And what is wrong with treating a foetus differently depending on whether it is a wanted event or not? EVERY child should be a wanted child. No woman should ever be forced into motherhood against her wishes. The rest is just ephemera.

" EVERY child should be a wanted child."

Yes to this - but what if it is only the father that wants it?

I find it sad that just because a father does not carry the baby inside him, he has no say.

Yes to this - but what if it is only the father that wants it?

Tough. It's not fair, but thats the way biology dictates it. If we allowed fathers to have rights over the womans body, thats a whole lot more that not fair.....