To think there are a lot of misconceptions about terminating a pregnancy

[fiveacres]

Obviously, about abortion, which is a contentious issue for some.

I am approaching the third due date of the pregnancy I terminated in the autumn of 2011 at 9 weeks.

I was a very pious sort once, who believed that abortions were morally wrong. i admit that freely. I still do feel that the best option is not to be in that position in the first place.

However, although I do sometimes think about it, I don't regret it. I've been pregnant twice since so it hasn't affected my fertility.

I paid privately. I did not have any counselling - I was undecided when I went for the initial appointment but I have to say it was very much 'assumed' that I wanted to terminate. The record of the abortion is not in my medical file.

You don't have to give a reason, although they did press me to have the implant, which I refused. They did do a scan, which was a bit upsetting.

It did not hurt. I was warned I would bleed a lot but I didn't. My periods came back in 6 weeks.

You are in a room with a LOT of other women after the procedure, which is upsetting.

Other than that, I felt good after having it done, relieved, happy, mainly relieved.

I do have the odd flash of guilt. I wouldn't do it again.

But, I was reading another thread and it crossed my mind a lot of people do not really seem to know what having a termination is like. My experience may be typical or it may not be, I don't know, but it would be interesting to see what the experiences of others are to try to dispel or to address some of the myths that surround this difficult but sometimes necessary issue.

I've been lurking on this thread and have to say that I am completely pro-choice. Still, I am uneasy about the personal attacks extended to Bumbleymummy. I disagree with just about everything she says, but defend her right to say it, without being accused of being a "women hater", and sneery comments such as "it's a lifeeeee".

It's also telling that this thread started to dispel the narrative that all women feel guilt etc after abortions, whilst recognising that some do and that's ok too. And it seemed to aim to be supportive.

But clearly the tone of the thread wasn't supportive to the posters who didn't feel positive, because they have all left the thread finding it too difficult.

And to whoever said that a 24 week gestation fetus isn't a human, i agree with a previous poster, that is so offensive to those who have lost a child through stillbirth.

I had a still birth wonder I have also had two abortions and two children. I don't recall the post that referred to a 24 week foetus as not human but I will say the still birth I had doesn't compare and can never be the same as my living breathing children. That's just my honest opinion.

Maybe it doesn't compare for you, but I know of two women for whom it most definitely does. One describes herself as the mother of four children but only three living. She would be devastated by some of the comments made about children born at that gestation on this thread.

Sorry, that should say 24 week old fetus. Not being snarky, genuine mistype.

*instead of children born at that gestation.

Different people who may have had much the same experanced may not find the same things offensive.

Many people who have experanced termination and still birth may be quite comfortable separating the way they feel about a wanted hoped for baby and an unwanted pregnancy they may be quite ok describing an unwanted pregnancy at 24 weeks as not a baby but a wanted baby that is still born at the same gestation as one.

Because one has hope and future planning tied up with it the other may not.

This is ok because feelings are just that,they are your own and nobody gets to police then or to say you can't have them

As I said it was just my opinion and how I feel. I imagine others don't feel the same and that's OK too.
As needs said Nobody gets to police others feelings

Exactly, feelings are very personal. So to say a 24 week gestation fetus isn't human, as an expression of fact, rather than opinion, negates the feelings of women who hold the opposing view. Women who may have had to abort for medical reasons, and are devastated about the loss of their baby.

Thank you everyone, I really do hope that one day I can forgive myself because living with this self-torture can be very hard at times. I have so many bad memories of that period in my life that it still hurts to think about it. Every one at school thought it was the biggest news ever (I was really swotty at school and probably considered to be the girl least likely to get pregnant) and my life became like a great drama and every other pupil was involved in it.

My parents are divorced, and were at the time, so my dad had no idea what was going on. All I wanted to do was tell him because I knew he'd help me figure things out but when I first told my mom that I was pregnant she said quite matter of factly: "I don't think your father needs to know about this." That was her way of telling me that I was not to tell him, so I didn't.

In discussing the pro-choice vs pro-life agenda, the language used, in what started out as a supportive thread, really descended into pretty much "it's not a baby/human life". Which is not how all women who have had an abortion feel. So the thread wasn't then supportive to all women who had an abortion.

It seemed more important to engage in a debate about the importance of pro-choice up to term. Fair enough, threads move on, expand etc. But it's then not surprising when women who do feel they aborted a human baby, and feel awful about it, feel unable to engage. And arguably, it is they who need most support.

writer I struggle with what went on in my early life but the one thing one small thing I have realised is I am not to blame. It was the adults in my life who let me down badly

Thank you Lucy

Writer . You really did nothing wrong but I get that you need to internalise that fact. Feelings are not facts, so feeling guilty doesn't mean there was anything to feel guilty for. I honestly recommend counselling if you can face it. It really can help.

The thread was never started as a support thread it was about dispelling myths surrounding abortion. It seems its fine to feel awful about having an abortion but when women have made the right choice for them it seems that's not OK and we should all feel guilt, that was the whole point of the thread

Sorry quite a lot of seems there

One of the problems during conversations like this is that there is often a disagreement about when life starts, that's a very personal thing and could be different depending on how you feel about the pregnancy,another problem is one school of thought likes to assign rights from the time they feel life starts none of this changes the fact that as things stand no rights exist until a live birth happens it's a shame that both things get entwined so much.
Because they can be seperated just as much as they can be joined.

"My experience may be typical or it may not be, I don't know, but it would be interesting to see what the experiences of others are to try to dispel or to address some of the myths that surround this difficult but sometimes necessary issue."

That's in the OP.

It would have been very difficulties these last few pages to say that "actually, my abortion, of my very much wanted and planned for baby, who I had to terminate for medical reasons, was bloody awful and I've never got over it, and felt guilt wondering if I had done the right thing".

In the first few pages, yes no problem. When it became more important to score points in the pro-life vs pro-choice debate, not so much. Comments such as (and I'm paraphrasing) "it's not a human life" will only serve to alienate someone who doesn't share the positive narrative.

It really is great if you can feel relieved, positive etc after abortion, and I agree that the narrative that all women must feel guilt is wrong. But people were asked to share their experiences. And the bun fight that ensued, with the language used, will really have only encouraged people who did have a positive experience to post. Not those who share the other reality IYSWIM.

Sorry no i dont agree with you wondering winter came back to say she wasn't being judged and that it was herself projecting her feelings regarding her abortion. You may have read the thread in that way though and that's fine

One person feeling one way does not negate someone else feeling another way.

It does not work that way.

Any thread that's started to either dispel myths or offer support is never going to be able to compleatly do so when you have posters on it who either don't believe anybody should be allowed to do the thing your talking about or want to be unpleasant to people who have done or who want to challenge why doing the thing is ok, it's also going to struggle quite a bit when the experances of women who have not done so are used as some type of permision marker for acceptable descriptions

What needs said.

obviously a woman who is devastated by posts saying a 24 weeks gestation fetus is not a baby has every right to feel that way. And I would have nothing but empathy for her, but she has no right to expect every other woman to feel the same way she does and police their feelings.

But equally, a woman who thinks 24 weeks' gestation is not a baby has every right to feel that way. The thing is, it's not just about woman A, or woman B. No one is right or wrong. It's all grey grey grey.

And i really could not give a rats' ass if i come across as sneery, whatever that means in uk talk. i am just so tired of everything being reduced into black and white little boxes of terms, when it's not a black and white issue. at all. This thread was supportive until it turned to politics.

Just to reply about my dfs ds who was born at 22 weeks. If she had believed the doctors he would not have been kept alive. Maybe that is why so many die or are allowed to just slip away. I realise not every baby would survive and some thought her cruel to fight to keep him alive, he was operated on once or twice per week for the first year of his life.

I think the stats are that if a baby born at 22 weeks has medical help then 25% could survive.

I do see a blastocyst/zygote/embryo/foetus in utero as alive (I don't see how you can deny it really, but perfectly happy to accept that others don't see it that way).

However, to be brutally honest, I just don't see all life as equal or, alternatively, as 'sacrosanct'. I firmly believe someone who is ill and wishes to end their own suffering should be able to do so. I eat meat. I swat flies and kill insects. I even put cut flowers in vases. Born humans, to me (and many people, I suspect) occupy a different realm.

Every single day, I prioritise some lives over others. So I have no qualms at all with that consistency being applied to this situation, as well.

"I think the stats are that if a baby born at 22 weeks has medical help then 25% could survive."

Much lower, as far as I know. Just from a resource for parents of premature babies:

"Very few preemie babies survive who are born this early. Research has reported rates of between 2% to 15%
The survival of preemie infants at this gestational age is largely anecdotal so specific data regarding disability and other preemie health outcomes on this group are limited."

That quote was from a Newsweek article. The fact the actual survival rates are so low is because babies don't have the help. Dfs son would have been another statistic if she had listened to the doctors who were reluctant to treat him.

I know of twins who were born at just under 24 weeks (by a matter of days) and although it was a long journey for them they are now perfectly healthy 5 year olds and have no developmental problems at all, they are as physically and mentally able as any of their peers.

The twins were born early via induction as they were actually two of triplets but a scan showed one of the triplets had died in the womb. Just because that baby hadn't been born alive, or taken it's first breath, it was a baby that was just as real to those parents as the two babies who had survived.

I'm pretty sure the parents wouldn't have appreciated being told that as their third child had died before being 'expelled alive' it meant it wasn't a life anyway.

When I was in hospital having DS I was on the ward with a woman whose first pregnancy had resulted in a still birth as a scan at 37 weeks showed the baby had died. The baby had never had a chance to take it's first breath but that doesn't mean it wasn't something that had never been alive.

I find it hard to grasp how that a wanted pregnancy is classed as a baby in the womb, but an unwanted pregnancy is classed as something that resides inside the womb that isn't alive and just feeds of a host.

Whether the pregnancy is wanted or not doesn't determine whether what's in the womb is a life or not.

When I was pregnant with DS he was a life from the start. How anyone can say that a baby that kicks and moves around in the womb isn't a life is beyond me.

What if a baby is born at term but doesn't take it's first breath so ends up on a ventilator? Does the fact he didn't take it's first breath and is being kept alive by another form of 'host' (the ventilator) does that mean that the baby still isn't a life?

It's all just so confusing and the lines seem very blurred.

I know that when I had my termination I was ending a life, even though the foetus was only 7-8 weeks old, which is why part of me will always feel guilty for what I did.

I obviously don't expect people to share my views, but I really struggle to understand how the baby during pregnancy can ever be described as not being a life.