who is being unreasonable?

[haroldsfakebluetits]

And if neither of us are unreasonable how do we resolve fairly?

Pregnant with no2. Last baby.

DH doesn't want to know the sex. I do. We didn't find out last time. We both feel strongly on where we stand right now and both have valid reasonings. But neither of us are budging this time (he didn't want to know last time and I eventually agreed)

How do we resolve this. He isn't happy with me knowing and him not so I'm stumped as to how to move forward..

His main argument seems to be that I 'always' get my way (i suppose I naturally lead the decision making for the most part but I always consult him) and that on this occasion where he feels very strongly about it that he should get his way.

If it was simply a case of curiosity (as it was with dd) I'd say ok, we won't. This time it feels like a big emotional factor for me. I have no preference. I just need to know so I can start visualising it all in my head and getting used to it all.. it feels like there's a huge change ahead and I spent so long concentrating on the issues of actually getting or staying pregnant that I can't seem to compute that there's a real, proper baby coming. I see the scans and it's moving and it feels like it's someone else's because I can't feel the movements myself etc. I hope that it gets more real as baby grows and I can feel them move etc.

DH keeps asking if we can have more babies. I feel very certain this is our last. How can I even contemplate more if he can't understand this? There's so much more to having a baby than just carrying and birthing it. He can't get this.

When I said he wasn't understanding me he got frustrated and said I was making him feel guilty 'just like with the miscarriage' ( in reference to the depressive episode I mentioned before)

No you're right. I won't discuss it any further and I'm going to stop trying to justify my feelings in anyway. I'm going to book the scan and I just won't mention that I'm going. If he asks if I know i won't lie, but I will be very very careful not to let him know- I don't want to ruin his surprise if he doesn't want to know.

I think you might be better writing this all out, calmly, can you e-mail it to him at work? Give him a chance to mull over your points (include that it's not fair to call his sibling's preference a 'tradition' as it's only been a choice his generation of the family have been able to make).

Then tell him he doesn't get to tell you you can't find out, only that he doesnt want to and you'll respect his wish to keep it from extended family and your DD, but you will find out for your own mental health.

State your position, including that as far as you are concerned, the decisions have been made, you'll find out and keep it quiet, he doesn't want to know, if he wants to change his side of that, he can do, but you won't mention it again.

If you would prefer not to have a private scan, there's also the option of asking the sonographer to write it down or ask your DH to step out when she/he tells you.

Don't agree with PP that all decisions are down to mum because her body, as husband said its his baby too

Not until its outside her body, its not. Then they are equal parents, right now they are certainly not.
I'm appalled at how many women don't agree. This is fundamental womens rights to bodily autonomy. I suspect you just haven't thought it through if you don't agree.

So to those people who don't believe mum gets a right to decide on this, are you disputing that it is her pregnancy? When you

Gah posted too soon

When you announced your pregnancy did you do the whole "we're pregnant" lark (vomits).

OP it is your DH's baby as much as yours, but this is your pregnancy and you should feel free to find out without your DH being such an arse.

winter I am one who doesn't agree with your opinion, which I see on here all the time. Your suspicion that I haven't thought it through is wrong: it's because I have thought about it a lot that I have decided that it's much, much more complicated than a simple question of bodily autonomy for the woman. The answer will depend on each situation, and will often be unfashionable, but will never - to my mind, anyway - clash with any feminist ideal either. Life is never as simple as your straightforward answer, and pregnancy is a 9 month period of time when it is even less simple.

Going back to the OP, your set-up and this argument with your DH sounds much like mine with my DH and the sorts of things he comes out with. I regularly hear about how we always end up doing what I want (well yes, because otherwise we just wouldn't be doing anything), and how I railroad him to get my way (no, his arguments are just never as well researched or thought through). So, inevitably, I hear about how it would be nice if "just once I could have my way". To which I ask what is more important here: you getting your way or us doing the right thing? And I generally forge ahead, and 99 times out of 100 he ends up agreeing with me (after some time).

I have learned to just quietly get on with things while being sensitive to his wishes and absolutely hand over decision making where I don't have a strong view. But the big ones (where we live, school choices) I did what I knew to be right for all of us and he caught up. My DH has the good grace to say when he was right/wrong, and we are evolving as a couple.

Also, I would add that this whole 'surprise' thing I've always found odd. It would be a surprise if it came out and was a cat! You KNOW it's going to be a boy or a girl - you can try imagining both. There are only two permutations! Also, 16wks is probably on the cusp of feeling the baby's movements. Give it a fortnight and you will feel them properly. It might help. Finally, you're not at the half-way point yet. There's no urgency is there? Maybe wait a bit until things have calmed down between you. Go for the scan, ask the sonographer to write it down on a bit of paper in an envelope, put it away until the dust has settled. Just some suggestions. Find out if you wish to, but it might be an idea to give it a little time to let the argument subside.

Life is rarely that simple, but in this it is. If you don't agree that a woman has the final say in what happens to and with her own body, you are handing the ability to make decisions to someone else. And that can never ever be acceptable.

What is complicated about it? Do you have the final say on your own body? If you're saying no, I still contend you have either not thought it through or you've made a big error somewhere.

It's not up to you, or me , or her doctor or her husband to tell her if she can find out what is inside her own body. It is her own choice and only her own choice.

The problem is that this man expects his partner to obey him, which is not reasonable. Good luck with your scan, OP, and just don't discuss it with your H any more.
ANd FFS of course women have the final say in anything to do with pregnancy. Sure, a loving, reasonable couple can have a reasonable discussion and reach an agreement, but if the man's being unreasonable: tough shit, he doesn't get his own way and needs to suck it up.
Anything other than that and you pave the way for men to: refuse life-saving medical intervention during labour because of their superstition or ignorance; compel a woman to abort a wanted baby because the man doesn't want it; prevent a woman from terminating a pregancy, etc. Men cannot have any rights at all regarding pregnancy and birth because men are not the ones involved.

Finding out the baby's gender is not something that happens to and with the woman's body. Ok you need an ultrasound to find out but you have that anyway for other reasons; generally speaking gender is one of a few pieces of information we find out at 12 wks. The fetus/baby at this stage is as much the father's child as the mother's; the oregnancy is the mother's alone. The child and the pregnancy are two completely distinct things.

However, as the woman is the one who is dealing with the mental health issues that come up in pregnancy, her opinions should be given extra weight over the putative father who has no such issues arising out of pregnancy. But this does NOT mean he has no say at all, or that in this kind of issue the mother has the casting vote. Imagine if the fertility issues were the father's and he had suffered years of crippling worry over whether he might ever have his own child (as happened with a friend who underwent 6 months of grueling chemotherapy in his late twenties). With a perfectly fit mother with no fertility issues, who now has the greatest right to sensitivity in this question of finding out gender of their child?

And of course it's complicated, and absolutely not black and white, perhaps in the arena of reproduction more than anything else. And of course it's not inevitable that allowing the putative father to decide on finding out gender will lead to an environment being created where he can have the right to refuse life-saving medical intervention during labour As you say, FFS.

Just because you and your DH know doesn't mean the whole family needs to know and there won't be any disappointment.

As for the "my body" argument, the decision DOES affect your body. It affects your mental health. I think perhaps he's worried that if you know you'll let it slip accidentally. You are also perfectly entitled to know something that affects something going on in your body. There are some families where the man knows and the woman doesn't (as a PP said above).

FWIW though, I do agree with the ideae that knowing the sex helps you "bond" with the baby earlier.

He is BU. You knowing doesn't affect him. I'd just find out and not tell him.

Actually, as soon as I hit send I changed my mind. I don't think it would help your case to NOT tell him that you know. Once you've had the baby he'll believe you didn't know either and, depending on what he's like, use that as a "see, told you you didn't need to know" situation.

My DH would back down if I expressed to him how and why I felt I needed to know, because he cares about me.

You have stated that your mental health is at risk. He doesn't care or doesn't care to understand. That's a bigger deal then what sex the new baby is.

Family tradition? Since when? Can't be that long, as there hasn't been the technology for finding out for that many years.
Whilst I didn't want to know, as I feel that somehow it's a bit like opening all your Christmas presents before the day, I understand your reasons and think they trump his. However, I'm not sure if be able to keep it a secret. I'd be bound to let slip sooner or later, with a random "him/he/her/she" at some point.

Finding out the baby's gender is not something that happens to and with the woman's body.

Don't be daft, of course it is. The scan is of her body, her uterus. Finding out whether her uterus contains a potential person with testicles or a vagina is to do with her body. How can you possibly argue otherwise.

And its not just as much his baby at this point, because it isn't a baby at all as yet. It's a foetus that is 100% dependent on and contained within HER BODY. All decisions and information pertaining to the foetus also pertain to her body.

Imagine if the fertility issues were the father's and he had suffered years of crippling worry over whether he might ever have his own child (as happened with a friend who underwent 6 months of grueling chemotherapy in his late twenties). With a perfectly fit mother with no fertility issues, who now has the greatest right to sensitivity in this question of finding out gender of their child?

Still her, of course! Its not about sensitivity, its about control,because unless you're arguing that he should be able to force her to have the scan and find out the sex against her wishes, then talking about sensitivity to her feelings is a nonsensical sop to a notion of equality that can never happen.

Either the woman has full and final say on every aspect of pregnancy and birth up to and including the point the foetus is fully born and a separate entity, or she does not. And if she does not, then you have opened a whole mess of cans of worms with massive consequences.

I'm not sure I follow your argument, it seems a bit confused to me. It absolutely IS about sensitivity. There is no question that the woman has control (does that really need to be said?), but just because an individual CAN do something it absolutely does not mean that they SHOULD.

And I think it is nonsensical to suggest that equality can happen: how can that possibly be, when it's only ever the woman who can be pregnant? Are you suggesting that giving the woman 100% control at all times over the fetus/baby somehow confers equality? I'm sorry, I'm lost.

Finally, this IS messy, it IS a can of worms and there ARE messy consequences. If nothing else, MN's Chat and AIBU and Pregnancy boards wouldn't be half is busy if it weren't.

Sorry, to address the first point: of corse I can (and do) argue otherwise. This is the whole nub of the issue: the fetus/baby would not exist but for the sperm and of course it is as much his as hers, and of course it is contained within her body. This is what creates ethical problems. It seems to me that you are seeking to sidestep this tricky dichotomy by denying its existence and the father's biological connection/rights/involvement.

Note I am saying nothing of the social aspects around who is left holding the baby after-birth. Once the baby is out of the mother's body, everything changes.

YANBU, your DH IBU. Because:

a) Your need to know affects your mental health for reasons that you have expressed very cogently, which is a much stronger need / argument than anything he's put forward.

b) The fact that he doesn't want to know, shouldn't mean that you can't, as you are an independent person with your own thoughts and needs. If he didn't want an ice cream would that mean that you couldn't have one?

c) It's your body that will be being scanned so ultimately your call.
But this does NOT mean he has no say at all, or that in this kind of issue the mother has the casting vote
The first half of this is true up to a point - his feelings are not irrelevant - but you DO have the casting vote.

However, I think his reasoning is so odd that I would be wondering, if he genuinely is thoughtful most of the time, if there is something going on here that he's not articulating? Do you have any insight into why it's so important to him? It seems odd.

I also think asking him might be a way of opening up the conversation and getting a better response from him - if he continues to just say no, you should go ahead with a private scan, but I imagine you'd prefer agreement, so it might be worth a try.

Finally, his comment about how you made him feel guilty is unkind, but it is true that supporting a DP with depression is not necessarily easy. Maybe he needs help with this?

My in laws didn't want to know what I was having! We decided to find out..they wanted me to keep it a secret.

I lasted about an hour before I refered to bump as she.

If you find out he will know. You can't keep it a secret. Find out, it's not a big deal. Just persuade him.

If my husband tried to stop me finding out the sex of my baby (his perfectly valid choice not to find out if that's what he wants) and acted like such a spoiled little brat about it, I'd be reconsidering him. Very controlling and utterly unattractive. I'd be just as upset if he'd forced me to know the sex if I didn't want to. It's bizarre behaviour and the tradition argument is spurious.

It's not confused. Perhaps you're confused. How much simpler could it possibly be: a woman has the right to decide everything to do with her pregnancy and her body. Thats it. Which bit are you confused by?

Sorry, to address the first point: of corse I can (and do) argue otherwise. This is the whole nub of the issue: the fetus/baby would not exist but for the sperm and of course it is as much his as hers, and of course it is contained within her body. This is what creates ethical problems. It seems to me that you are seeking to sidestep this tricky dichotomy by denying its existence and the father's biological connection/rights/involvement

It does not matter if the foetus would not exist without his sperm. It does and it lives in and on HER body, and not HIS. There is no ethical problem. There is no dichotomy to sidestep. Anything contained within her body, be it foetus, organ, whatever, HERS and only HERs to decide.

The father has no rights, until it is outside her body and a seperate entity to her. Seriously, I can't say it any clearer than that.

The law already agrees. Your opinion on it makes no difference.

I don't think there is anything to be gained from a response from me to your last post.

Apologies, OP, for the detour the thread has taken from your original issue.

Dh has just given me the silent treatment for the entire day for the first time ever in 8 years.

^ this can't possibly be just because I want to know and he doesn't surely. Me thinks he's not bring honest.

I don't think you have a response, because you know I'm right. You can't possibly be arguing that men have any rights to decide what a woman does to or with her body while pregnant.

OP, it seems like its a bigger issue? IS he generally controlling with you or is this new?

No not controlling at all- has his little quirks as we all do but is generally a gem. But we can both be v stubborn at times.

He's just got home and there's still an air. I can't decide whether to approach it again and see if he tells me the truth since there's obviously more to this, or just leave it completely and go ahead with my own plan anyways. I really don't want another argument!

I'd leave it for now if I were you, OP, but if he brings it up be very clear that this is very important to you, and while you value his contribution and opinion, the final decision is and has to be yours. And good luck!