Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:
bumbleymummy · 29/05/2015 10:02

Bathtime, I was clarifying that I hadn't said what you stated i.e. that abortion made you more of a victim.

I don't hate women at all. Nor are my views inhuman given that we're talking about human foetuses.

leedy given that you know I think life begins in utero and I consider things as how you would if you were looking at a baby rather than a foetus then I thought it was obvious that I wasn't going to think that health would trump right to life.

Bert - why? Why do you think it's offensive to point out that some people who consider themselves pro-choice speak out against people being given support that could actually give them choices?

Actually leedy there are issues with determining whether or not a baby with anencephaly is brain dead that come up when parents are considering organ donation.

bumbleymummy · 29/05/2015 10:07

Sabrinna, you can bluster away but the point was simply that your 'maternal instinct/mother's love therefore means she must have a reason' point doesn't stand up. Mothers are still capable of committing crimes against their babies/children and we don't just think 'oh, they must have had a good reason for it'.

BertrandRussell · 29/05/2015 10:10

"Why do you think it's offensive to point out that some people who consider themselves pro-choice speak out against people being given support that could actually give them choices?"

Your suggestion is that people who are pro choice are also likely to be "benefit bashers". Which is utterly outrageous.

BertrandRussell · 29/05/2015 10:12

And it is extraordinary that you should also suggest that people who are pro choice do not campaign on other issues as well!

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 29/05/2015 10:13

But I'm not talking about mothers committing crimes, am I? I'm talking about mothers seeking a termination of pregnancy - which imo should be a safe, legal procedure, but isn't in Ireland.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 29/05/2015 10:19

I think we get to the nub of it all here:

Bumbley thinks that termination of pregnancy is a crime akin to infanticide. She doesn't trust that any 'reason' for this is a good enough, or 'trustworthy' one, because - "infanticide".

I believe that a woman has the right to terminate a pregnancy, because it is her body, her choice, a decision between her and her doctor.

BertrandRussell · 29/05/2015 10:28

She also thinks that people who are pro choice are "benefits bashers" and do nothing to campaign for support for women. What she bases this on I have no idea.

jusdepamplemousse · 29/05/2015 10:36

I second that leedy re reaction...I'm in NI so marginally safer here, but still completely denied my rights (although I don't think I'd be left at risk of serious physical life threatening harm by NI NHS that's about all I can count on them for).

It's unfair and it's terrifying.

bumbleymummy · 29/05/2015 10:38

"Your suggestion is that people who are pro choice are also likely to be "benefit bashers". Which is utterly outrageous."

No, it isn't. You're just proving why I don't engage with you on these threads. I'm not going to get sucked in to defending myself against your nonsense. My time is more valuable than that. Have a pleasant day.

Sabrinna, you're asking for there to be no legislation - like the Canada model (quite an unusual model actually) and different to the one in the UK.

no, that's not what I was saying as you well know. You're just sore because you made a silly point about mother's instinct/love meaning they have 'good reason' for doing things which doesn't stand up when you consider that plenty of women/mothers do things without 'good reason.'

BertrandRussell · 29/05/2015 10:49

Not sure why I should come in for unique opprobrium. Why is asking you to explain incomprehensible statements so unacceptable?

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 29/05/2015 10:50

She also thinks that people who are pro choice are "benefits bashers" and do nothing to campaign for support for women. What she bases this on I have no idea.

Me neither, Bertrand.

Sabrinna, you're asking for there to be no legislation - like the Canada model (quite an unusual model actually) and different to the one in the UK.

Indeed, that is what I would like to see in the future, I think the Canada model is a good one for women. The UK, at least, has some provision for women to access safe, legal abortion at the moment. Ireland does not.

leedy · 29/05/2015 11:23

"leedy given that you know I think life begins in utero and I consider things as how you would if you were looking at a baby rather than a foetus then I thought it was obvious that I wasn't going to think that health would trump right to life."

Yeah, suspected as much. Marvellous for the likes of my friend who had severe postnatal psychosis and was medically advised never to get pregnant again as it was almost certain to cause a relapse. She didn't as she desperately wanted another child but it was incredibly hard for her and her family, she was hospitalized for quite a while after the birth, was on extremely powerful meds and took years to recover. If she hadn't wanted the baby and got unexpectedly pregnant, you'd just have said, tough shit, your existing child and husband are just going to have to put up with you being away in hospital, hallucinating, threatening self-harm, suffering terrible distress, because of a couple-of-week-old foetus's "right to life". You might be incredibly unwell with life-long health consequences but hey, you're not dead. That's compassion right there, folks.

BathtimeFunkster · 29/05/2015 11:35

Step one - Invent fiction: that foetuses are the same as people who have been born.

Step two - Use fiction from step one to justify harming women

Being a "pro-life", anti-woman, fundamentalist zealot is an easy and fun game all the family can play.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 29/05/2015 12:14

doesn't stand up when you consider that plenty of women/mothers do things without 'good reason.'

I'm saying that it's her choice - whatever her reason - it's not for you or me, or anyone to judge her reasoning, or say whether it's a 'good enough' reason. It's enough that it is her body, and she doesn't want to have a baby - her decision, not yours or any lawmakers.

bumbleymummy · 29/05/2015 19:38

leery, from your earlier post, 'switching off life support' isn't considered euthanasia. Euthanasia and assisted suicide are currently illegal in the UK.

re your friend's experience - you're referring to a 'couple of weeks old foetus but you don't only support abortion for a couple of weeks. It sounds like your friend went through a lot. The thing is though, if she didn't want to get pregnant there are several ways she could have prevented that. Yes, different methods of contraception aren't 100% effective but if multiple methods are used correctly it is very reliable. It's not like inevitable pregnancy and abortion are the only options. You're also using another extreme example and saying '2 week old foetuses' even though you don't only support abortion in those situations and only at that gestation.

Sabrinna, you could have said that. Instead you talked about maternal instinct and love being the "most powerful forces in nature". Hmm And the idea that it should be a woman's choice up to birth isn't one currently supported in UK law and that is unlikely to change and it's incredibly unlikely that it will ever get in to Ireland regardless of whether or not you think it should.

leedy · 29/05/2015 22:02

Well yes, I know that "switching off life support" isn't the same as euthanasia, but you're the one who made the analogy between TFMR and euthanizing people with life-limiting conditions - TFMR is much more equivalent to turning off life support.

And please stop twisting my words and making my friend's story all about how she could have avoided getting pregnant in the first place (just like how you made the putative pregnant rape victim story about how your solution was to prevent rape ever happening). As it happened she got pregnant on purpose, but you're really suggesting that if she didn't and used contraception, and it failed ("because she could just use multiple methods at once! that's very reliable!") it would be fine and dandy for her pregnancy to hospitalize her with a serious illness?

I mentioned "a couple of weeks" not to be "extreme" but because that's the point when most people find out that they're pregnant, and if they really don't want to be pregnant, they have abortions. The vast majority of abortions happen in the first couple of months of pregnancy. I suspect if I'd been told another pregnancy might land me in a psychiatric hospital for months on end on powerful anti-psychotics and I didn't want another child, I'd have terminated as soon as I saw the blue line on the test.

But of course you're doing your "but of course pregnancy and abortion aren't the only options, contraceptive failure is very rare, rape is very rare, pregnancy that can injure and kill is very rare, anything that isn't the woman's fault is very rare, TFMR is very rare, so let's not talk about any of those because they're extreme cases, it's just those STUPID SLUTS who can't be bothered with doing contraception properly spreading their legs and having all those abortions and they should be made to give birth to PAY FOR IT, even if it cripples them".

LucyBabs · 29/05/2015 22:08

The forced birth groups in Ireland would have you believe that the majority are against abortion.

Within my age group and younger the pro choice movement is gathering strength.
Women are no longer prepared to be told what they can or cannot do with their own bodies.
People are numb to the posters showing aborted foetuses (which are actually born babies) people are numb to the hysterical "won't someone please think of the children"

Maybe abortion to term won't ever be a reality in the UK and Ireland but abortion will happen in Ireland in the not to distant future.

Can I ask you Bumbly how do you feel about an Irish woman's right to travel to the UK for an abortion? I assume you voted against that as well?

LucyBabs · 29/05/2015 22:10

Well said leedy

bumbleymummy · 29/05/2015 22:11

leedy, not really. You don't just remove/cut the umbilical cord (which I guess is what you consider to be the 'life support' in this analogy) when you perform an abortion. Nor do you actively stop the patient's heart when you turn off life support. So they aren't really equivalent. I think it's an interesting and important thing to consider. If we are terminating for conditions that are life limiting pre-birth for 'compassionate' reasons - why not after birth as well? Why show the foetus more 'compassion' in this case than you would show a baby born with a life limiting condition?

I don't think these things are 'fine' leery - I just don't think they trump right to life. I realise that you don't agree with me - we are coming from different positions on what we think 'life' is.

Your last paragraph is just ranty nonsense.

bumbleymummy · 29/05/2015 22:15

Lucy, as I said earlier, I think some legislation allowing for termination in restricted circumstances may be introduced. I think FFA is probably the most likely. I don't think that the majority would favour the pro-choice 'abortion for any reason at any time' stance presented on this thread. Thats not even favoured in the UK!

Why do you think I would agree with someone travelling for abortion? Confused

LucyBabs · 29/05/2015 22:17

Are there no such things as children's hospices any more?Confused

Children who are terminally ill or have life limiting illness can attend a hospice and are given dignity and medical care as they die.

LucyBabs · 29/05/2015 22:20

I asked because I wanted to know if you were happy to export our abortions. There care many many anti abortionists who are happy for it to be exported

bumbleymummy · 29/05/2015 22:27

It's not the same as euthanasia though is it? Technically, we could consider that allowing a foetus to die in utero is equivalent to hospice care where you are just 'managing' the condition and allowing things to happen as they will without actively interfering.

"There care many many anti abortionists who are happy for it to be exported"
I don't really understand that position Lucy but then everyone thinks about these things differently.

BertrandRussell · 29/05/2015 22:29

Except that the hospice is unlikely to be in huge distress and potentially die of sepsis............

LucyBabs · 29/05/2015 22:32

The woman is the incubator, the life support. She should have the final say if she wants to continue to be the life support for the foetus..