Irish abortion laws

[crumpet]

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

Bath, I'm sorry to hear that you were raped. I didn't say that the abortion made you ' more of a victim' I said women were still victims even if they have abortion. The abortion doesn't take the rape away.

As I've already pointed out, people are not forcing women to give birth. The birth is the 'natural end' of a pregnancy (unless a woman miscarriages)- it is not allowing a woman to interfere (by force) to end a pregnancy.

jus, sorry if you think that. I really thought I had answered...

"physical injury and illness, serious mental health issues, poverty, harm to existing children, loss of opportunity"

To me, abortion is not the solution to these things. In fact, it can also cause physical injury and illness and serious mental health issues. I think the only real solution is better support. I think it is awful that women feel they have to abort because of poverty, lack of support, loss of opportunity. I'm sorry but very few people campaigning for abortion rights are clamouring to help end these issues. In fact, you often find the same vehemently pro-choice people on benefit bashing threads!

Bath, it's not a case of 'hating women', I actually do a lot to help women through my job on a daily basis. It's about not discriminating against a life because of how it was conceived. As I said, I think life starts in-utero so I'm looking at it in the same way as how I would treat a born baby? I wouldn't think a baby with a rapist father was of any less value than a baby with a loving,caring father.

I'm still not sure why we're focussing on rape here. You can dispute the 1% figure all you like - that's officially from the US and the UK figure is much lower. But why argue about it anyway when you don't only support abortion in the case of rape.

aint I'm sorry to hear that you were raped as well. I'm honestly not trying to upset or offend anyone with my opinions but I realise that is impossible given my views and that other people don't have the same ideas about when life begins. I just consider the ethics of things in a different way to some of you.

I do dispute this idea that life begins at birth though. At what point exactly?

Abortion is not the solution bumbly? Well it was for me and it is for thousands of women.The abortion I had was the solution to my almost nervous breakdown. I travelled to the uk. The relief I felt was indescribable I had my life back and could continue with that life with my dp and dc.

If I had have been forced to continue with that pregnancy I can assure you my children would be motherless now.
Would it have been better if I took my own life instead of the solution of an abortion?

I already know what you'll say. I could have had therapy.
Well no because it was the pregnancy causing my mental health problems and once there was no pregnancy I was back in good health

I think lucybabs's situation illustrates what I'm trying to point out bumbley - there can be some really awful detrimental effects caused by a pregnancy to which abortion really only is the only solution. Let's be realistic - who would actually put themselves through a reasonably intense medical procedure unless they had a plausible alternative choice. Wishing they had other choices or things weren't the way they are is meaningless.

I'm shocked you think there's a correlation between pro choice people and benefits bashing or lack of support for women. Can I ask you to note that pro choice is just that. The woman's choice is respected. That means whether she decides to continue with a pregnancy or terminate it. And yes obviously pro choice people may be from all different walks of life and some may be down on benefits - as will some pro life people - but I really don't think there's a correlation.

Bumbley - absolutely we don't agree on this issue or the point at where life begins. And we never will. And that's why I don't see the point in arguing it with you. Because you'll never come round to my point of view and I'll never come round to yours.

But I respect your point of view because it is your point of view. If you try to change legislation I'll fight you because then we're talking about actual people and their lives.

But you have a right to a point of view and I can't say you don't even if I don't agree.

The same as you (hopefully) don't object to mine.

I'm sorry that you felt that way Lucy.

I would see the abortion limit increased in the UK, certainly not reduced. I would like it to be in line with Canada.

Not because I like the thought of abortion, but because I think there are circumstances where a woman wants and needs not to have a baby at that time. I do trust women to make that decision for themselves. I personally think that the maternal instinct and love is one of the most powerful forces in nature - so if a woman does not want a baby, she must have a bloody good reason for it.

I consider myself to be immensely lucky and privileged to have never been in the situation myself - my babies were all conceived when they were wanted, planned and I was financially secure and in an emotionally stable relationship. I had straightforward pregnancies, no health problems with me or the babies. But I see how precious they are every day - what an important job it is to bring them up properly, love them, nurture them.

Whoever said they became more pro-choice having had children - I feel the same. It just such an important thing to bring another life into the world - it should be wanted by it's mother. (Sorry for use of 'it').

jus, we are talking about extremes here though and no one is arguing for abortion only in those extremes. I can see the argument for abortion in the case of FFA and believe me, I do think hard about that one and tbh I think it is the one that is most likely to be brought in to Ireland. However, I think it raises some very real ethical issues. If we are considering abortion for conditions that are life limiting should we also be considering euthanasia for babies/children with life limiting conditions? Why is it 'fair' or just to 'end the suffering' of a foetus but not a child/newborn? Would people advocating this not consider it showing a foetus more compassion than a born child?

I'm not saying there's a correlation between being pro-choice and benefit bashing nor am I saying that all pro-choice people are benefit bashing. I'm saying that many people that I see on these threads who are very strong advocates for abortion aren't advocating for changes/support that would help women to have alternatives. You mentioned poverty and lack of support and that's where it seems a bit wrong for these people who are pro-womenhavingchoices (Which may actually be to continue with a pregnancy if she did have financial/emotional support) criticising financial assistance for vulnerable people.

aint, no, I don't obejct to you having a different a point of view. As I've said a few times, I don't expect people to agree with me and I doubt anyone thinks that I will suddenly abandon my beliefs about when life begins and its value - it's not like I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it!

" I do trust women to make that decision for themselves. I personally think that the maternal instinct and love is one of the most powerful forces in nature - so if a woman does not want a baby, she must have a bloody good reason for it. "

How do you explain women who kill their babies/children then? Do you think we should have laws against that? Or do we just think 'oh, she must have had a good reason for it, we'll trust her decision'?

I think they're probably mentally ill in some way, bumbley - and should certainly have access to a safe, legal termination, in the event they were pregnant and wanted one.

How do you explain women who kill their babies/children then? Do you think we should have laws against that

Yes, I think there should be laws against anyone killing children, however, I do not consider termination of pregnancy in the same category. I don't believe abortion should be regulated by criminal legislation, I believe it should be done the Canadian way - a decision between a woman and her doctor.

I've been very polite and respectful of your views Bumbley but don't be silly and claim that infanticide isn't different to termination.

It's a completely different issue and is recognised as such in law. Don't clasp at straws now.

Sabrinna, some murderers are mentally ill as well but they still get convicted and we don't just 'trust that they had a good reason' for doing it.

I'm not comparing infanticide to termination - I realise that most people don't think that life begins in utero. I'm pointing out flaws in this idea: "maternal instinct and love is one of the most powerful forces in nature - so if a woman does not want a baby, she must have a bloody good reason for it"

I'm not comparing infanticide to termination

You just did.

Bumbly you didn't answer my question? would it have been better that I took my own life or was me having an abortion recovering mentally and being a mother to my children the better option?

I think the point is that if you have pro choice legislation, it means that people who belive life begins as conception and that the life of the foetus is at least as important as the life of the mother can not have abortions, and people who think differently can have abortions if they feel they need to. So nobody is forced to do anything they don't want to. Anti choice legislation means that some people are forced to do things they don't want to. It just seems logical that pro choice legislation is the way forward.............

We live in hope Bert

No, Sabrina, I just explained what I did. I was pointing out that your ideas about a mother's love don't make sense given that some women do commit infanticide. We don't assume that because they are mothers and have a maternal instinct and love they must have had a 'good reason' for not wanting their baby.

No Lucy, it wouldn't be 'better' to take your life. I'm sorry that you felt abortion was your only option.

Bert, but given that people believe life begins in utero - that would be equivalent to them agreeing with the removal of any legislation protecting the life of babies/children. You think it's acceptable because that legislation kicks in whenever you think that life begins.

Also, the foetus' life isn't considered as important as the mother's - that's why there is termination of the mother's life is at risk. I realise that you don't think that is good enough but it does show that it's not as important.

Termination if the mother's life is at risk.

Once a baby's born a mother can hand that child into other care, she can get away. I realise that's setting aside the emotional fallout from so doing but just for the purposes of a limited but v v important point - a pregnant woman can't get away and in order to do so she has the obstacle of birth in her way.

Also, re the 'only option' comment - I think we should respect people when they set our what their options were. Obviously there will always be other theoretical options but if they aren't tenable to the person in question they are not real options.

The abortion doesn't take the rape away.

More glib, offensive, anti-woman bullshit from you.

I find it frankly terrifying that someone with your inhuman, woman-hating views has a job where they "help" people they don't even recognise as fully human.

You disgust me.

Still no answer to my question about a pregnancy that threatens the health of the woman but won't actually kill her, I see.

And no flaming from me at all, aint, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I think I have a more visceral reaction to the likes of bumbley because people like her mean that I live in a country where I am constitutionally forbidden from having an abortion here unless I'm actually going to die, and people like her are still fighting to have that ban retained even under the most extreme circumstances. Spending most of my adult life protesting about this has made me a tad grumpy on the subject.

Until I read that post, I thougth this "I think it is awful that women feel they have to abort because of poverty, lack of support, loss of opportunity. I'm sorry but very few people campaigning for abortion rights are clamouring to help end these issues. In fact, you often find the same vehemently pro-choice people on benefit bashing threads!" was the most offensive post on this thread.......

"If we are considering abortion for conditions that are life limiting should we also be considering euthanasia for babies/children with life limiting conditions?"

Well in some cases, yes we do - it's called "switching off the life support" and it happens in hospitals all the time. And that's what I think termination in those cases is - it's switching off the life support for someone who has no hope of survival without it and (in the case of anencephaly) is basically already brain dead.

Bumbley keeps comparing termination to infanticide, then saying she's not comparing it to infanticide - but these are the facts:

-We were all discussing abortion.
-I state that I trust a woman's choice to have an abortion for whatever reason, whilst pregnant, because maternal love is a strong natural force, and if women don't want to be pregnant, I believe they should on no account be forced to be pregnant and forced to give birth against their will.
-Bumbley brings up infanticide, as if this is somehow relevant or comparable.

What you're arguing bumbley is so ludicrous that it defies belief. You are saying that because infanticide exists, we should not trust that women seeking terminations have 'good reason'? Yes? So women with a lack of maternal feeling/love should be forced to have the baby?

Which is why engaging with bumbley is rather like banging your head against a brick wall. She does ^this all the time. Obfuscation, whataboutery, derailment.