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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 17:48

Yes lumpy, but why not 'we should trust women(or men)' wrt other laws. People often argue that there should be no need for any abortion legislation - we should just 'trust women' but they don't make that argument for anything else. eg. We shouldn't have laws against drunk driving - we should just trust people etc etc...

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2015 17:53

Tell you what. I won't insist you have an abortion if you don't prevent me from having one. That's the logical extension of agreeing to disagree, isn't it? A genuine right to choose. Nobody's views over riding anyone else's. Problem solved.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 18:01

Do you think that approach would work elsewhere? I won't drink drive and I won't insist that no one else drinks and drive. My view of it will not over ride anyone else's. I won't steal but I won't insist that no one else steals -my view won't over ride anyone else's. I won't commit murder but I won't insist that no one else commits murder - my view of it won't over ride anyone else's. etc etc. Why only apply that logic to legislation on abortion but not elsewhere?

BathtimeFunkster · 27/05/2015 18:03

Yes, deciding you no longer want to be pregnant is exactly like drink driving.

Inhuman views on humanity - definition of hardline pro-lifer.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 18:05

Don't dodge the question Bathtime - explain your logic.

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2015 18:07

I can't think of a comparable situation- one where the state takes control of an individual's bodily autonomy. If you can think of one, them we can discuss it. Comparing the right to choose an abortion with drink driving is crass in the extreme.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 18:15

I'm asking about the idea that we don't need legislation for abortion but we do need it for elsewhere. That we can't 'trust' people - unless they're pregnant women.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 18:16

It's about respecting the bodily autonomy of your fellow human beings and realising that if a decision is to be made about their body they should be the one to make it.

You can't or won't understand this because you have taken a fundamentalist stance. You're blinkered to anything that doesn't afford full human rights to embryos and foetuses. I don't know why. Maybe you know why, maybe you don't. You do seem reluctant to state your rationale but that's your prerogative of course.

But it can't really be broken down any further for you I don't think, sorry.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 18:22

Jus, as said before - it's not just their body that's involved.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 27/05/2015 18:29

You don't need criminal law, or (the Constitution) to regulate abortion - Canada doesn't, and it doesn't appear to have turned the nation's women into heathen savagery just yet.

Abortion in Canada is not limited by criminal law but by the Canada Health Act.[1] While some non-legal obstacles exist, Canada is one of only a few nations with no legal restrictions on abortion.[2][3] Regulations and accessibility vary between provinces.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 27/05/2015 18:39

As far as I am aware becoming pregnant isn't a crime? No idea why you are comparing it to drunk driving.

BathtimeFunkster · 27/05/2015 18:42

it's not just their body that's involved.

Yes it is.

The foetus's "body" is a part of the woman's body until it is born.

So you have two options

1 recognise a woman's basic humanity and right to bodily integrity even while pregnant

2 pretend that a foetus is the same as a somebody who has been born, and reduce the woman to an incubator

There are no other options.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 19:00

bumbley - that's your opinion. Demonstrably not shared by all.

But could we park that for a sec?

Could I ask you to tell me how women are supposed to deal with unwanted or impossible pregnancies in your world view? How can you justify putting people through the trauma of pregnancy and birth against their will and what are the reasonable and meaningful proposals to alleviate the associated suffering and/or right that wrong? Because it is a wrong. Even if you believe it's a justified wrong in pursuit of a worthy goal (birth, forced if needs be) it is a wrong to compel someone to do something against their will and to take away their bodily integrity and their choices. I am genuinely interested if a little nervous to hear. It's just I find most forced birth proponents don't really have ideas on alternatives in a practical sense.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 19:28

No lumpy - having an abortion is illegal. Some people are arguing for no legislation.

Yes, Sabrina, Canada has been mentioned. No one is saying anyone will turn to 'heathen savagery'

Bathtime - don't be ridiculous. It's not part of a woman's body. It's genetically unique.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 19:30

Jus, that's not an opinion. Or are you suggesting that the foetus doesn't have a body until it's born (you wouldn't the first on these types of threads!)

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 19:31

Will come back to other point later!

BathtimeFunkster · 27/05/2015 19:36

It's not part of a woman's body. It's genetically unique.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Something can be "genetically unique" and still be a part of your body.

Your sperm, for example.

Maybe they should get personhood rights too?

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2015 19:43

Bumbley- if your 15 year old daughter was raped and became pregnant would you want her to have an abortion?

BathtimeFunkster · 27/05/2015 19:46

Almost certainly not.

Teenage girls are first in line to be sacrificed to the great foetus God.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 19:48

bumbley thanks for agreeing to address my question.

On the 'body' point your use of 'their' body suggests personhood of foetus which is not a concept I acknowledge...hope that explains my statement. Further to the extent that it is or isn't a body, to take the 'their' part out of it, it's a body totally dependent on another body which definitely does belong to a human, with rights.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 27/05/2015 19:52

bumbley, you do make me laugh, just because somethings come up on a thread already doesn't mean I can't mention it again.

I was mentioning it in the context of your post about drunk driving. Women accessing abortion doesn't have to be a part of criminal law - Canada doesn't and hasn't fallen to wrack and ruin. It proves that a woman can be trusted to make this decision herself, with consultation with doctors. It has no place in criminal law imo.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 19:55

I don't think we should make hypotheticals about another poster's kids part of this discussion, sorry. Must be better ways to make a point. Just seems wrong.

Re the point about teenage girls generally sadly that is true as their parents can overrule them / they are less likely to have the resources to travel or arrange private treatment. Sadly that must also be a factor though in anti-choice families even in countries providing free abortion

LucyBabs · 27/05/2015 19:58

Oh but forced birthers want the foetus to have person hood, life begins at conception don't ya know.
The unborn needs to be kept instead the incubator oops sorry woman's body at all costs.
A teenage pregnancy ha aren't they the worst, those damn girls getting themselves knocked up they'll just have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives.

LucyBabs · 27/05/2015 19:59

bath The great foetus god

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2015 21:11

"I don't think we should make hypotheticals about another poster's kids part of this discussion, sorry. Must be better ways to make a point. Just seems wrong. "
I don't agree. I think people need to be prepared to put their money where their mouths are on topics like this.

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