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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Irish abortion laws

999 replies

crumpet · 23/05/2015 16:38

In all the publicity about the gay marriage referendum Aibu to wonder why there hasn't been mention of the abortion laws? Have I missed discussion on this?

OP posts:
jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 12:40

Doesn't make what inhuman? Sorry I'm lost there.

We think this about abortion law because abortion law dictates what a competent adult can or can't do - or indeed will be forced to do - with their own body. Hence why we should trust them to make the decision, with information and support and resources and compassion.

That's why.

BathtimeFunkster · 27/05/2015 12:45

What an incredibly cold thing to say. This is a human baby you are talking about

It's a human foetus.

It's not a human baby. It's not a human person capable of independent life.

It exists only because my human body, the body of a person, is creating it.

Its relationship to me is somewhat parasitical - pregnancy can be very harmful to women and creates additional health risks for even healthy women.

But I put myself through those risks, and hardships, and permanent effects on dentition, bladder control, musculoskeletal strength, core strength, because I want that tiny little organism to grow into a human baby, a human person in its own right.

But while it has no ability to live outside my body, it is an outrageous insult to my humanity to tell me that it is just as important as I am.

If Being A is entirely dependent for its existence and continued life on Being B, you can't make Being A "as important" as Being B without significantly reducing the importance of Being B.

You are saying to an independent person who has lived in the world for years that they only matter as much as something their body made and that cannot exist without them.

It's ridiculous.

Foetuses only exist because of the woman's bodies that gestate them.

Treating them as independent beings with rights of their own diminishes women and denies reality.

Twasthecatthatdidit · 27/05/2015 13:11

This is why I said upthread that the main focus shouldn't be savita's story as that is complicated by the fact that if the hospital had not been negligent she would likely still be alive despite the law. But what about Lucybabs story Bumbley? Was that the right thing to happen? Or the story of the poor lady on another thread at the moment with a paralysed baby at 17 weeks with no chance of life & potential for pain, should she be refused a termination if she is in Ireland? Or the raped asylum seeker who can't leave the country? Are all these things right? And no negligence involved.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 13:16

jus- bath time implied that a foetus is inhuman. Machair posted against that - you said it's part of the scientific reality of what a foetus is but scientifically, the foetus is human.

Jus, it's not just their body that they're controlling though. That's the point. It's not as simple as that - there is another, human body in the equation as well.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 13:17

Twas, they're treating those lives in utero as they would treat them if they were born.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 13:27

Yes scientifically it's human tissue with the potential to become a human.

It might be the most wanted, cherished and loved human tissue with potential to be a human ever. I would never diminish the love and protection a pregnant woman can feel in respect of what is growing within her.

But it's not a human. And I would never diminish the fear, terror and anguish that a pregnant woman can feel in respect of what is growing inside her. For various reasons.

I know you feel differently but please don't say or imply that the scientific consensus is that it's a human.

While I think you are wrong I absolutely believe that you should have the freedom to treat any foetus in your body as if it were a human. You - or the state - should not however as a general rule be able to dictate how other women treat foetuses in their bodies, and put them through distress and pain and suffering because you think you know best.

BathtimeFunkster · 27/05/2015 13:29

Treating a life that is in my utero as if it was born reduces me to an incubator.

The defining characteristic of a foetus is that it hasn't been born.

Treating it in law as though it has been born means that I, who have definitely been born, have my rights (including my right to life) compromised.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 13:33

I said it's human not a human.

Jus, but why should the value of a human life be determined by whether or not someone likes/wants/loves it?

Your right to life isn't compromised Bathtime. Your life is put ahead of the foetus' when it comes down to life vs life.

Alisvolatpropiis · 27/05/2015 13:34

No, an adult woman and a foetus are not "equally human".

I cannot respect the opinion of any person who considers a woman a mere vessel for the foetus.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 13:40

It's not a human life.

It is tissue with the potential to become a human life at the expense and effort of a human. Therefore it matters whether that person who is required to go to that expense and effort wishes to do so and how they perceive the tissue with the potential for human life.

Talking about the 'value of a human life' is off the mark, reductive, and designed to invoke a v emotional response at the expense of addressing reality and facts.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 13:41

At a genetic level, yes we are.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 13:42

You keep saying a human life. I said it was human. We disagree about when 'life' begins but then so do scientists throughout the world! We're not going to resolve this on MN on a Wednesday afternoon! :)

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 13:43

Without meaning to sound glib, at a genetic level I'm identical to the hair in my hairbrush so I'm not sure how much weight that argument has in and of itself.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 13:45

You just asked me about the value of 'a human life'. Your post at 13.33. But whatever.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 13:47

Also - those PA smilies - I think they're really rude and patronising.

And if they aren't meant to be PA please be aware that's how they come across.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 13:51

That wasn't a PA smiley! That was just a smile because we aren't going to figure out an answer to a question about when life begins on a Wednesday afternoon. Geez.

Jus, "at a genetic level I'm identical to the hair in my hairbrush' Not sure what point you are trying to make here. Yes, you could identify that the hair in your hairbrush is human, and yours.

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 13:56

My point is that your point re being the same on a genetic level seems fairly weightless in the context of the rights and wrongs of abortion. My example was an attempt to illustrate it's weightlessness.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 14:01

Well the point was purely that at a genetic level you are equally human to a foetus. It's not false is it?

jusdepamplemousse · 27/05/2015 14:06

It's not false to say that humans and human foetuses are genetically the same.

But that doesn't really give weight to an anti abortion stance.

Because being a human person is a matter of more than genetics.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 14:11

Well personhood is more of a legal/philospohical thing than a scientific thing.

BathtimeFunkster · 27/05/2015 14:15

At a "genetic level" I'm "equally human" to a boil on my arse.

What a load of absolute cobblers.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 14:16

And that 'boil on your arse' would be as equally human as a boil on a foetus' arse.

sashh · 27/05/2015 14:56

Bumbley

Are yo against abortion on religious grounds?

If you are why do you think a god who says abortion is wrong would carry out so many? God (if you believe in him) is the most prolific abortionist in the world.

bumbleymummy · 27/05/2015 15:09

No sash, I'm not religious.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 27/05/2015 17:20

Just wondering why 'we should trust women' comes up in respect to abortion law but no other law

Um, because the fetus is inside the woman's body, it is part of her.