To make an official accusation of bullying?

[Jonesing4Jones]

I'm in my final year of a degree program. I like to get really involved in lectures as it helps me learn so I sit by myself at the front and often answer questions and make comments etc, basically just generally engage with the lecturers. I have often heard low level sniggering but I ignore it.
This morning we had a group session and the tutorer said that we could either go home early or stay and discuss our topics and asked for a show of hands. I raised my hand to stay and assumed I wouldn't be the only one but I was. The lecturer then said that as someone had expressed a wish to carry on with the session they had to make everyone stay. I was mortified and said I'd changed my mind and people shouldn't be made to stay for me but they wouldn't go back on it. So a mutter of "for fucks sake" etc was echoing around the room and I felt awful. Anyway as the session progressed I answered questions and stayed involved like I normally do and at the end I told one of my experiences (the tutor had asked for one). What I hadn't realised is that she had said "if nobody has anymore to say we can pack up". I genuinely didn't get that bit and waffled on with my story :( Anyway afterwards I was walking behind a group of women and they were being incredibly nasty saying "she does my fucking head in" and "she obviously has had a shag in a while and wants to shag the lecturer" etc etc. When they realised I was there they all ran off laughing. I've since realised that a number of underhand 'sly' discussions on facebook referring to a person named "Lisa" is actually on about me.

We have 12 weeks to go. Do I say something or just stick the rest of it out? I'm in my 40s, the majority of these women/girls are in their early 20s.

Yes, but there are other parts of the pastoral care system which can involve people listening like counselling services. If the OP goes on to do research in the same department as the people involved then a complaint may be appropriate. But she hasn't given any indication that is the case so we can only assume that she's leaving at the end of her course. That is what most people do.

It's very difficult to tell from the information on this thread if the OP is an engaged student in a class full of slackers or if she is monopolising time, droning on and wasting the lecture time. If it is the latter then I don't think, if we're talking references, that kicking off a formal investigation just before you leave is going to leave a good impression at all. Especially over such minor issues.

DSD had a Lisa in one of her uni classes last year. She constantly derailed lectures on pointless diversions, anecdotes etc. the rest of the class spoke to the lecturer, who then tried to "manage" Lisa's constant interruption.
The result was that she then put in an official complaint about him and he was suspended, pending investigation. Only after all the rest if the class independently verified his version of events was he reinstated. by this stage both faculty and students were less than impressed with Lisa.

I'm sorry you heard that op, hearing people talk about you is hard for anyone!
They were in the wrong but do you take up a lot of the lesson time?
On two courses i'v had two 'lisas'.
One was the mature student and one was young!
It gets very annoying and is very hard for others to learn.
The last course especially was hard as it was very technical and to have someone constantly interrupting to talk to
The lecturer was tiresome and also stopped me learning.
I am not saying the women on your course were right to bitch about you, but you could very well be stopping them learning.
If you only have 12 weeks to go then these last weeks are crucial to cram the last things in!

My first course when i were younger the lisa was 18!
Constantly telling little stories nobody wanted to hear, asking questions we'd already gone over as she weren't listening.

I don't think it's fair to make all these assumptions though.
When i was at uni at 18 drinking was not the most important thing to me at all.
Why imply young students don't care as much about their studies than older students?
Not the case for all. Not all are juvenile and just waiting for classes to end either.
Why is it ok to talk badly about young people but if you say something about older peopke you get jumped on?
I'm not a young just out of school student either!

I wouldn't make a complaint either. Be very hard to prove the fb status are about you. Hopefully they will feel bad and remove them though.
You may very well have complaints about yourself, ( as we all complained about our lisas).
You have 12 weeks to go, do you really want to make them tense and miserable?
Just ignore and concentrate on passing.

Do you have a set time for the sessions OP?

I've been going to college in the evenings and our class runs from 6pm-9pm.

We have a 20 minute break during that time, which is fine, but as the course went on a lot of people started leaving after the break, or were wanting to finish early so we could go for drinks to celebrate various birthdays and occasions etc. At Christmas we agreed we would go out after the last class had finished and the woman organising that booked the table for 6:45pm.

When we have stayed to the end, the last part of the lesson includes role-play sessions and more than a few people have decided just to chat through it, or play on their phones, or slump over the desks saying they weren't in the mood.

Some people have had this course paid for, others have had to pay a lot of money to be there.

I'm one of the people who paid, and also one of the people who really wants to go on to the next level. I don't want to be finishing early to go to the pub or working with a group of people who week after week keep saying they can't be bothered.

I am very possibly a Lisa but I don't care. I signed up to learn something, learn as much as possible in the time allowed, and work towards a new career, not to sit and have a chat and slope off to the pub halfway through. We have all chosen to be there one evening a week, some of us have paid a lot of money to be there, nobody has been forced to carry on with the course if we've decided it's not for us, either through this year or to go on to next year.

A lot of them kept saying "we could do all this in an hour, I'm meeting my sister/want to go to the gym/feel too tired today" but how they expect to learn the theory, have any tutorials necessary, and then put in the essential role play time in an hour is beyond me.

It's a course that improves by discussion and participation and the skills practice role pay is a massive part of it. And if they don't want to carry on, fine, but they were making it much harder for the people who did want to carry on and actually spent our class time in class learning something.

They are also the people who, at the end, hadn't met their criteria, finished their work folders, or completed enough skills practice sheets. So they've taken up a lot more than their fair share of time at the end getting extra help because they haven't bothered to put the effort in, not in class or at home with the learning journals we had to keep each week.

Your time in class is your time in class. You've agreed to be there for a set amount of time, possibly paid to be there, you should have your full amount of time there to learn and discuss whatever it is you are there for.

I don't know why people bother to do something like this if they spend all their time trying to leave early to do something else.

YANBU, and if you feel they have been bullying you just because you want to spend the time in class learning and they want to do as little as possible so they can go home early, then yes, I would put a complain in about them, as it is going to affect you and how you feel in class from now on.

I'm sorry they have done this to you.

I must admit I don't really understand your thought processes in the session today. You already knew that the other students wanted to go home early and you say you were mortified about being the cause of them staying there for the discussion. In your shoes in that situation I would have kept my head down, maybe contributing minimally in the early stages so that some sort of discussion could happen, but I would have limited my own contributions knowing that I had already pissed people off and that to prolong the discussion would delay everyone getting home even further. Yet you chose to weigh in and "waffle on". In the nicest possible way, perhaps you need to be a little more self aware?

Couldn't agree more with Icimore. After feeling 'mortified' you carried on regardless and even admit you waffled. Are you sure you are being as attentive as you think and aren't just thinking about what you can say next?

Asking for clarification about something, questioning a source or data, debating a theory = perfectly legitimate use of class time.

"waffled on with my story" = STFU.

'She constantly derailed lectures on pointless diversions, anecdotes etc. the rest of the class spoke to the lecturer, who then tried to "manage" Lisa's constant interruption.
The result was that she then put in an official complaint about him and he was suspended, pending investigation.'

This. I used to teach mixed-age groups and found the Lisas the absolute worst to deal with. If someone's disrupting the class in a more banal way (chatting, using phone, eating a takeaway curry from their handbag ) you can deal with them in a pretty straightforward manner. But Lisas have to be managed with kid gloves, because they're so much more likely to put in an official complaint.

All the Lisas I've known have considered themselves to be the best and most diligent students in a sea of flighty lummoxes, whilst constantly slowing lessons, acting in a selfish way (because they paid for this course and the other students are idiots), and driving me quietly insane. I don't think it's simply wanting to be a good student, either: there's often a large degree of showing off, because it clearly irks them to be in an ability-level group with much younger people. Often they act like I should be tacitly recognising that they're the 'good' one and everyone else is an idiot.

True Lisas arrive early and try to engage in a personal tuition session while you're trying to sort your board markers. They stay late for the same. They are statistically most likely to question the mark you've given their essay. They will point out the one typo you've made all term. And then they will put in an official complaint about other students' behaviour.

The thing is that the lecturer may have had no options left when only one person wanted to stay behind and discuss.
Firstly, wouldn't be much of a discussion, and secondly lecturers are often told not to get into 1-2-1 sessions, particularly if he's male (assuming OP is female)
If he'd said "I can't do it with one person you better all go" then "Lisa" could have complained about his finishing early.

Now when I was at uni then lectures were for the lecturer to talk and very occasionally ask questions-that was a rarity. I do remember once when someone had a correction, but other than that I can't remember people interrupting.
Classes or tutorials are when you can ask questions/give personal stories.
Most lecturers had got their lecture times to the hour, other people asking things would have meant we got less done.

And as an older/more experienced person you can find you do have more experiences that you can share. Doesn't necessarily mean you should. I was an an antenatal class with 10 first timers and 2 (including me) 2nd timers. One thing I saw very quickly was that me and the other 2nd timer could have added stories at each stage. It would not have been helpful for anyone. However after the class we often went for coffee together and then often people would say "did you do X?" or "How did you find X?" and we'd then give our experiences.
Apparently one of the most helpful things we did was giggle helplessly in the corner as one after the other said they were going for a drug free birth and it couldn't be that painful could it? The others told us afterwards that it made them consider that drugs could be used and so listen properly to the descriptions of them so they were well informed rather than just thinking (as I had too 1st time) that that bit didn't effect me as I had no intention of using them. It also made them feel that they weren't a failure for using them.

I was a a lisa and very aware of it. But our main tutor was shit and if we didn't make him go over things twice, no-one knew what was going on.

We had another tutor who was very good, and mostly never needed to go over things twice, but if i ever asked a question she would say "right, we'll go over it again, because if clean isn't getting it, none of you are, but you're all too scared to ask"

All the "do what makes you happy" talk is all well and good but the reality is that uni students want to go out, get drunk and get laid.

Except, of course for those who want to get their degree. there are more of those than those whose goal is to get drunk and have sex realise, but that sort, whether by age or inclination, can't appreciate anyone with a different view. Older students have often already lived through the consequences of such thinking which is why they are more engaged than the kids in the back of the classroom.

Engaging so much with a lecturer would have done my head in at uni, sorry. By asking lots of questions, you may be learning in your own style but it slows things down for everyone else.

The OP is not obligated to short change herself in order that they can prioritise their short term goals.

It's all well and good saying lisa should learn in the way she needs to but if she's ruining the lectures for everyone else isn't that a bit selfish?

She wasn't ruining this particular lecture though.

She wanted to lecture to continue, some of the others wanted to leave early.

If she's taking part in a lecture she wants to be part of and learn from, and they are sitting there muttering about her because they'd rather have gone home early, it doesn't sound like she's the one spoiling things for them because they don't sound like they care. They are the ones being selfish by wanting to cut the lecture short and leave, and then muttering thought it when it continued.

When I did my masters (straight after undergrad so young student) there was a Lisa in the group who drove us mad! She'd always interject with non relevant, historically questionable points, showing that she was in fact quite a weak student she was a lot older, probably late 60s, and couldnot take a hint. Equally, she would look cross when one of us made a valid point, trying to interrupt and take the lead again. Luckily our lecturers were very good at ignoring her and talking to us instead.

I have to say that Lisa's don't just get on young people's nerves either!

It's horrible to hear people being mean about you OP but before you complain you need to step back and think about if they have a point?

They have handled it badly too though the issue of our "lisa" was addressed by approaching the lecturers and asking them to manage it better. Uncomfortable to do BUT effective

I'm not sure that this behaviour would necessarily be characterised as bullying, unpleasant as it is. There's no evidence that the other students intended you to hear what they said, and they may have walked away out of embarrassment. Equally they may not have known you would see the Facebook posts or relate them to yourself.

Moomin

I wasn't saying you were juvenile or immature (I was saying I was), but the behaviour of this girls is.

I'm sure you don't behave like they have

I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that the other students just want to go out and get drunk or their lazy or their parents pay so they don't care.

I've studied as a mature student, worked part time and had a job and a child. I had to manage my time effectively. If I felt that a subject had been well covered in the time we'd had, I understood it and felt happy to leave it there I wouldn't be happy about having to sit around for one person who made a habit out of it when I could be doing reading or an essay or getting a load of washing on.

I think the lecturer is at fault here. Whatever is happening they seem to be managing it very badly and shouldn't have made the class stay behind when the OP changed her mind.

I agree the lecturer should be able to steer things a bit better, and read the mood of the majority to bring the lecture back on track, or know when to wind it up.

Why hasn't the OP come back, or responded to a single post?

It does irritate me when people are obviously so intransigent in their own belief that they are the victim that rather than even debate it they just go off in a huff and dismiss everything that's been said, as though the conversation never happened.

It fairness to the OP it's an unpleasant experience hearing other people rather brutally pointing out the fact that you are annoying them and then having it confirmed by strangers on the internet I suspect she's feeling rather down about it.

Some people seem to have very little awareness of how they come across and I'm sure the OP is actually a lovely person but is just oblivious to how her "enthusiasm" have been received by other students.

Agreed, but a good first step would be to engage with us about it - we aren't going to eat her alive if she demonstrates that she is open to constructive criticism and she could get some great support about how to midfy her behaviour slightly so as not to rub people up the wrong way. Going off the at deep end and considering making formal complaints of bullying is totally inappropriate in this instance and will just make things worse for her. She'll be a laughing stock.

modify not midfy

And where is the lecturer in all this? Every school teacher is trained to manage classes of children from 3 - 18 and to ensure that everyone is able to participate. There's a huge range of skills that can be used to ensure no one dominates. It doesn't completely stop the Lisas of the world but it does establish an ethos that everyone's contributions are valuable. It's the lecturer's responsibility to create a safe harmonious learning environment.

I agree with Mrs Starlord and others on thread questioning the lecturer's role here. It is their job to control discussion, to make sure no one dominates and the lecture finishes promptly.