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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to not baptise my children?

152 replies

leafbarktree · 11/05/2015 12:39

I live in Rep of Ireland, and have two small pre-schoolers, neither are baptised. DH and I were both raised Catholic and are non the worse for wear as a result, but both of us are now at best agnostic, and would disagree with the church on several aspects of their teaching.

In Ireland, the vast majority of schools have the Catholic church as 'patron', and are free to prioritise Catholic children over those of other faith or none. (schools with other patrons have the same right). All of our local schools are over-subscribed and the kids will not currently get in to any of them, unless we baptise them. There are a few non-denominational schools a bit further away, but again they are over subscribed, and the chances of getting in are slim-to-none.

The department of education has said that every child will be offered a place, but I know anecdotally the school that we would be offered. It's no where near us and doesn't have a great reputation on any score. Additionally, it's not a 'feeder' for any good secondary school, so we would be snookered further down the line again.

I am worried that we are hanging our children's education out to dry for the sake of our own principles. Should we just baptise the kids, get the piece of paper and get on with it? I am very aware that if everyone in Ireland keeps doing this, nothing will change.

OP posts:
samG76 · 11/05/2015 12:41

I'd do it - it's more a cultural thing than anything else. At least it keeps your options open, and doesn't prejudice the children.

AdeleDazeem · 11/05/2015 12:43

Yanbu
There are loads of multi faith schools in Ireland. The Church already have more than enough 'plastic Catholics' on their books.

TranquilityofSolitude · 11/05/2015 12:43

I think it's awful that you have to consider this to get your children into school. However, I suppose that if you don't believe in baptism then it's a fairly meaningless exercise. I think I'd find it hard to explain to the children though.

Floggingmolly · 11/05/2015 12:43

You're not going to change it all by yourself, either...
It's a bit like people banging on about how, if everyone sent their kids to the local school, be it "failing" or not, it would all turn around and all schools would rise or fall to much the same level.
Maybe, maybe not; but who's going to sacrifice their own kid's education as an experiment?

PurpleDaisies · 11/05/2015 12:45

I think you are absolutely right to stick to your principles. I can understand the dilemma with schools but I wouldn't want my kids growing up thinking I was a hypocrite for making promises I didn't believe before a God I wasn't sure existed.

madreloco · 11/05/2015 12:46

Schools take anyone in their allocated area. They aren't allowed to discriminate based on religion, its actually in the Irish constitution.
I presume you're in a leafy bit of Dublin?

Bilberry · 11/05/2015 12:53

I think baptism as a measure of faith is ridiculous, all it really is is a measure of cultural adherence. I know many Catholics and Anglicans who do not agree with infant baptism but have a huge commitment to and certainty in their faith. It is an easy box to tick though. So YANBU, it is a mockery of the faith to encourage baptism in this way. However, this is the system and you will have to consider how you prioritise your principles.

MitzyLeFrouf · 11/05/2015 13:00

It's a tricky one. I dream about the (far off) day when church and education in Ireland are completely separate.

In the meantime you need to decide if you can reconcile your agnostic beliefs with having your children baptised. Just because they get baptised doesn't mean they have to make their Communion or Confirmation.

Cuppatea14 · 11/05/2015 13:08

Madreloco, I am in Dublin yes. Not sure about the leafy bit. Unfortunately where a school is oversubscribed they are allowed to give priority to children of their own faith - in fact the humanist org has a petition out to get it changed humanism.ie/2015/03/baptism-poster-campaign/
Another PP says there are plenty of multi denominational schools around, this is definitely not the case in my neck of the woods, unless you have the money for private school (which we don't).

MitzyLeFrouf · 11/05/2015 13:16

Are there any good Educate Together schools near you or are they the over subscribed ones you mention?

gabsdot45 · 11/05/2015 13:25

I'm in Dublin too. I'm not Catholic and luckily where I live there is a good choice of schools so mine go to an Educate together (multidenominational).
know that around here schools must have a clear enrolment policy and religion usually comes down the list a a bit after age,catchment area, siblings.
It annoys me no end the hold the Catholic church has on education here. Ruairi Quinn tried to make some changes when he was minister but it's a slow process.
It annoys me when people like yourself are forced into making religious choices for their children that they don't want. However in your case, I'd probably ge them baptised. Make your stand at communion time by not having your children make their communion.

Theycallmemellowjello · 11/05/2015 13:25

If you genuinely feel it would get them into a better school why wouldn't you? I could understand why not if you were Muslim or something, but for an agnostic there's no positive reason not to is there? I say this as an atheist.

Greenstone · 11/05/2015 13:28

I'm in the same position op but just can't bring myself to do it. We may not be as stuck as you are for schools but may not get into the one right next to us - only time will tell. There are more of us out there than it seems.

Original poster
leafbarktree · 11/05/2015 13:29

Mitzy - there is one a short drive away (longish drive in morning traffic!!), we have had DD1's name on the list since she was 4 months old and have been told she still probably won't get a place.

I agree with a PP about being a hypocrite to my kids. I would like to be able to be proud of the decision we make rather than sloping off to sign them up for the wrong reasons. HOWEVER, would they be questioning us more if they end up in a crappy school miles away from all their friends?

DH also says that if we end up baptising and sending to the local national school, that he would want them to go ahead with the communions/confirmations because he wouldn't want them to be left out. Think that is a battle for a later date because I would completely disagree, but it does add more complexity to the decision. We have applied to the local COI schools also to dodge the whole communion fandango but again have been told we probably will not get a place.

I feel like no matter which way we go, we'll be letting the kids down on some front, am furious to be in this situation.

OP posts:
TracyBarlow · 11/05/2015 13:29

I'm a 'proper' Catholic and my children are baptised.

In your shoes I'd do it in a heartbeat. Grin

whatsagoodusername · 11/05/2015 13:30

Is there baptismal requirements where you are? I've heard if some oversubscribed schools (England though) that require baptism before six months/one year old - presumably to weed out people baptising to get school places.

scandichick · 11/05/2015 13:30

YANBU - in an ideal world you wouldn't, but the way the system is set up in Ireland at the moment you don't have much choice. Why not write to your local TDs to push for a change, that's probably the most effective way to change things?

You might also want to double-check if any time limits apply - do you have to get the children baptised i.e. a year in advance to meet the criteria?

MissPenelopeLumawoo2 · 11/05/2015 13:40

However in your case, I'd probably ge them baptised. Make your stand at communion time by not having your children make their communion.

Would they get into a senior school without having made their FHC? Our RC secondary is so over-subscribed it is now looking at whether the children have made FHC or not! So be careful- you may have to go the whole way if you start down that path. Are you prepared to do that if you don't believe in it?

Momagain1 · 11/05/2015 13:41

DH also says that if we end up baptising and sending to the local national school, that he would want them to go ahead with the communions/confirmations because he wouldn't want them to be left out. Think that is a battle for a later date because I would completely disagree

Surely both of those choices should be made by the children, who, if you are actually raising them agnostically, wouldnt want to do so.

I would be concerned that he will expect the family to slide into a half-way, going through the motions for social conveneince sake sort of catholicism, or even more committed. Or even actually committed.

madreloco · 11/05/2015 13:51

If your schools are that oversubscribed, then baptising them won't make much difference anyway. Either the school will be full anyway or everyone else will be rushing to baptise as well and you'll be in the same position.

Mistigri · 11/05/2015 13:55

Just do it. It's piece of paper. Cross your fingers of lying bothers you.

Our kids went to catholic school for practical reasons similar to yours (only viable alternative to village school that we were not happy with for several reasons). They aren't baptised but they would have been if necessary!

SylvaniansKeepGettingHoovered · 11/05/2015 20:44

I wasn't baptised, and I remember being about 10yrs old and asking my mum why I wasn't baptised. My mum said 'I thought it was important for you to decide for yourself, once you're an adult. It wasn't for me to decide'.

I'm glad my mum didn't get me baptised, and proud she left it for me to choose. My parents are not religious, it would've been hypocritical.

BadEmployee · 11/05/2015 21:03

Our DCs are not baptised and we are openly atheists. They attend local Catholic school as there is no alternative, but it's not oversubscribed as we live outside the Pale. DC1 didn't make Communion and didn't feel left out. DC2 won't either, although might prefer to fit in (bit of a sheep). They both participate in RE classes, we just correct the emphasis at home.

Sadly, it looks like you'll have to suck up a commute or Baptism. I presume even with that, there's still no guarantee of getting a place in the preferred local school?

Marvel101 · 11/05/2015 21:30

I would baptise them to keep your options open. Our local school is very good - but priority is given to Catholics. Non- catholic children in the area had to find places in not so good schools outside the area.

It's all nonsense and I hate the church being involved in the school - but it was worth doing it to get in to the school. It does not make DS a Catholic just because some man poured water over his head and chanted something.

If anything the whole thing has made us more anti- religion. Having it rammed down your throat is so annoying. We certainly will never be bringing DS to mass. DS can make his communion if he wants but it's just an excuse for a party to us and means nothing.

The church should not be involved in schools. If people are religious they are free to teach their children at home and to bring them to mass. Why should the rest of us have to have our children brain-washed

Yes - this issue really annoys me Grin

Aermingers · 11/05/2015 21:35

I know the argument is 'if everyone in Ireland keeps doing it, it will never change'. But are you sure that your children would thank you for them having a bad education because you did it as some sort of ineffective protest?

My little boy is Catholic and we take him to mass. Neither of us are massively religious (and I'm not even Catholic), but we were bought up in religious households and felt that a lot of the values it taught us were worthwhile. Like treating others as you'd like to be treated yourself, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, personal responsibility and moderation.

We do also have a very good Catholic secondary in our area and the local school is a failing one with very poor results. If I said that didn't help me get out of bed on a Sunday I'd be lying. In some ways it's a sort of social justice because it is one way poor people can get their kids into a decent school if they can't afford to move area or go private.