to not baptise my children?

[leafbarktree]

I live in Rep of Ireland, and have two small pre-schoolers, neither are baptised. DH and I were both raised Catholic and are non the worse for wear as a result, but both of us are now at best agnostic, and would disagree with the church on several aspects of their teaching.

In Ireland, the vast majority of schools have the Catholic church as 'patron', and are free to prioritise Catholic children over those of other faith or none. (schools with other patrons have the same right). All of our local schools are over-subscribed and the kids will not currently get in to any of them, unless we baptise them. There are a few non-denominational schools a bit further away, but again they are over subscribed, and the chances of getting in are slim-to-none.

The department of education has said that every child will be offered a place, but I know anecdotally the school that we would be offered. It's no where near us and doesn't have a great reputation on any score. Additionally, it's not a 'feeder' for any good secondary school, so we would be snookered further down the line again.

I am worried that we are hanging our children's education out to dry for the sake of our own principles. Should we just baptise the kids, get the piece of paper and get on with it? I am very aware that if everyone in Ireland keeps doing this, nothing will change.

The school thing would be one of the major reasons against my returning. But there are lots of reasons why I think Ireland would be a great place to raise a family.

Agh did not include - I'd probably end up having her baptised. But no way would the other stuff happen (she would hate me for denying the white dress but tough).

I wouldn't.

If I were in your position I would baptise them. If that's what it takes to get into the local school, then unfortunately that's what it takes.

Katie and Mitzy, snap. I live in England and have a three year old. DH and I have talked about whether we might ever move back - all of both families are there, and we do both love the place, albeit with a large side order of irritation, horror and frustration - but the link between a morally-bankrupt religious hierarchy (which still lays its not-so-dead hand on education and legislation) and the educational prospects for my lovely, unbaptised son are a major strike against a return.

OP, no advice for you, just fellow-feeling. I agree with others that it won't stop until people opt out in significant numbers, but as someone who had a very poor school education myself, I am alsomsympathetic to the position that says 'do whatever you need to in order to get your DC a decent education, and try to deal honestly with your children about the pragmatics as they grow.'

NC to protect the innocent as this one will out me.

I live in the UK and have two daughters but am from Dublin. DH is English but we are both Catholics by birth, were married in the Catholic church, and believe in God. The Murphy report was published while we were on honeymoon and we came back to read it. That was the straw that broke the camel's back as far as I was concerned. There was a lot of stuff with which I had never agreed (the usual list) but once that was published, and I made the mistake of reading it from cover to cover, I just couldn't countenance raising children in the Catholic faith. Particularly due to the reaction of the Church to it which, with the exception of poor old Diarmuid Martin was horrendous. So, after much thought we baptised the children Protestant and now attend our local Protestant church. The number of people from home of my generation who have said "God you're very brave. How did your parents react?" has been astounding. You'd swear we'd sold their souls to the devil! As it happens, the only one who was less than comfortable was MIL and she came to church with me and the girls last Sunday. So apparently she's over it .

I wouldn't do it OP - you don't want them being fed the bollocks at school. I'd be on to the Pre-Enrolment List officer for your local ET school and explain the situation. I think some of them are changing their entry policies. The ET schools tend to have school bus services which admittedly are paid for by the parents but take them from tinies (I went on it from Senior Infants).

In the end, you've got to go with what you believe in. I've seen too many people do it for the sake of the schools - I think that must be so confusing for the little ones. Especially when it comes to FHC and confirmation. By the way, back in the day, the Catholics went and did their FHC at the local church and then trooped back to the school for a party to which everyone was invited. I still have a lovely photo of me looking ridiculous all reverent with my best friend who was CoI next to me :)

Lipsync - I do understand to a degree. Me and my husband were raised in an Irish Catholic background (scotland). We know the pressures and often expectations. Most of my family and friends still by pass their closest local schools to send their kids to further away Catholic ones.

I do think Ireland needs to become more secular as as you say the young irish I know aren't particularly religious and want to see changes in many areas. I don't know if the younger generations over there are actually doing much about it. I would protest for change but I probably still wouldn't make my child possibly suffer educationally for my principles.

And that's one side of living in England and my kids not having to face all the Catholic expectations, lip service and whole Catholic/protestant thing that I really appreciate.

Please, please don't do it, OP. One of the reasons the churches have such a stranglehold on schools here is because of all the people who "just do it! It won't do any harm! It's just a piece of paper! It's thinking about your kids! One more won't make a difference!": the churches can then go on about the vast numbers of Catholic children they have on their books, "the figures show real demand for denominational education", "protecting their ethos because that's what parents want" etc. etc.

And no, you can't opt out of being a Catholic once you're baptized (they removed that particular loophole), even if you don't participate in any of the other sacraments you're still a member of the church.

We're atheists, DC are not baptized, I was in a panic about schools and "suffering for our principles" when the time came for DS1 to get a school place and we ended up getting four in the end. He is currently in our local (Catholic) school and the teacher is very understanding about him not being Catholic. It's not ideal but it's a lovely school and where all his friends go. If our proposed local ET opens up and isn't just infants to start we'll think about moving him.

I'm with leedy. I see it as the key issue that is stopping the education system being dragged into the 21st century. "It won't do any harm" is a rubbish argument. It will. As it will allow the Catholic Church to continue to do harm. Do you really want to sign up your DD to the Catholic Church? Really? I know someone who claims he's become a feminist since having daughters. We've had some tetchy conversations as he chose to have them baptised for schools.

I went to a Catholic secondary school and, although the Principal in my day was a nun, I remember almost no religion playing a part in school life outside Lent and the nonsense that passed for sex education. Now, I read my alma mater's website occasionally and WOW, lay Principal but boy does religion get more of a mention. A lot more. And I hear it from people who have children in national schools too. It will be very very hard for your children to ignore.

Educatetogether - you ask if I really really want them signed up to the Catholic Church... Obviously I don't or I wouldn't be in this dilemma! The fact is that our local ET school is VASTLY oversubscribed, to the point where people are signing up before the child is born. In my innocence I didn't get around to putting my LO's name down until she was 3mo and I've been advised that she won't get in.

So my dilemma now is... Baptise them and get them into the local 'good' catholic school, or don't baptise and they STILL end up in a catholic school, just a fairly crappy one no where near where we live or work. It's just a ridiculous position to be in.

if you're agnostic then the whole thing is pretty meaningless anyway, I'd just get it done.

YANBU and I can understand where you're coming from. However I think in that culture id get them baptised.

I'm agnostic and haven't been christened myself and neither has DD.

However if it were a case of needing to get some water splashed on her head (as that's all I see it as) to get her into a school, I wouldn't hesitate.

My little boy is Catholic and we take him to mass

No he isn't. He's a child of catholic parents. Religion is a belief system and we shouldn't be brainwashed into thinking it's an inherited trait like eye or skin colour. Saying your child is a Catholic, Muslim, Jew or whatever is like saying your child is a socialist. It's nonsense that we all seem to blindly accept. It really annoys me.

Of course being brought up in an environment with Socialist parents will increase your chances of becoming one to, but that's a decision to be made by the child when the child is older.

None that any of that helps with the OP's problem, but I just like to vent over bloody organised religion.

I admire folk who make a stand for their beliefs but you really have nothing to gain here by doing so but just make things harder for yourself all round. Once in you can stand back with perhaps other parents who feel as you do.

I think leedy makes a very good point. But I agree, it's an incredibly hard decision - do you take a principled stand, or do you take the pragmatic view for the sake of the children? The trouble with the pragmatic approach, as leedy points out, is that it ultimately props up a corrupt and outdated system.

But only you can decide. How bad is the school you think you would be offered? I can understand that you wouldn't want to condemn your children to seven years of misery (and possibly more if there's a knock-on to secondary school).

(In England but most of the primaries here are church schools.) Having been in the situation where our eldest didn't get into anywhere and where the council didn't even have anywhere else they could offer for a while I would say take the pragmatic view and get your children baptised. It'll save you a whole pile of grief. (We wished we had!) Who knows where you'll be come secondary school, but this'll solve your immediate issue.

I know it's different, but my kids go to a Catholic school in NI, there are a few kids in each of their years that aren't doing the next two sacraments - Reconciliation and communion.

I admire folk who make a stand for their beliefs but you really have nothing to gain here by doing so but just make things harder for yourself all round.

Sadly, you are absolutely right Bambambini. But the Catholic church in general, and in Ireland in particular, is a morally bankrupted busted flush. It's possibly the most criminally corrupt organisation on the planet. How will their all powerful grip on the culture of Ireland ever be weakened unless people do take a stand.

And this, my dear friends, is why things don't change.

OP, you've probably already checked it out, but are there any multidenominational gaelscoileanna near you? Some are Catholic but others are not, though it can be hard to figure out which is which unless you read their prospectus (often as Gaeilge).

There are also some other growing movements like Community National Schools that say they are multidenominational, but I'm not sure how they work in practice.

Personally, I wouldn't baptise. I live in the UK, but if I were still in Ireland I'd be putting my DS's name down for every non- and multi-denom school in the Pale, and looking to move house if he were offered a place. But then I (and my DP) do feel verrrrrrry strongly about not sending DS to a Catholic school.

My view is that primary age children are so immensely suggestible and trusting of what they're told in school that it can be impossible very difficult to unpick the immersive religious instruction of a Catholic education by saying something different at home. By secondary, they might have the critical thinking faculties to question what they're taught, but in primary, I think they're too vulnerable to absorbing unquestioning belief. Having seen this in action first-hand in more than one Catholic primary school, I don't want to place my DS in that situation.

Other people will of course think differently and take the pragmatic stance that it'll all wash out in the end. But I'm not convinced.

Yes, my Irish-based friends who opted out put their children in either ET schools or a gaelscoil. I've been thinking about this overnight and talked about it with DH (theoretically, as we don't live in Ireland), and we've both said we would in no circumstances baptise our son. The principle is too important.

I think some non-Irish based commenters don't realise, though, that the OP's dilemma is that if she doesn't baptise her son, he still has to go to a Catholic school, just a worse, more distant one.

I live in cork and mu child is at an over subscribed Catholic gaelscoil and there are loads of people not baptised and have not joined in with communions and and it's not a problem at all. They have religion class for 15 mins twice a week and they talk about many religions. They know how the world was created by being taught about the big bang. The education you describe is not one I'm familiar with
I went to a convent secondary and even the nuns didn't push religion on us or teach creationism

Are you sure you aren't assuming that religion and not being baptised is an issue rather than having recent experience of it?

This thread has strengthened my resolve not to have my children baptised in the event of a move back to Ireland.