to not baptise my children?

[leafbarktree]

I live in Rep of Ireland, and have two small pre-schoolers, neither are baptised. DH and I were both raised Catholic and are non the worse for wear as a result, but both of us are now at best agnostic, and would disagree with the church on several aspects of their teaching.

In Ireland, the vast majority of schools have the Catholic church as 'patron', and are free to prioritise Catholic children over those of other faith or none. (schools with other patrons have the same right). All of our local schools are over-subscribed and the kids will not currently get in to any of them, unless we baptise them. There are a few non-denominational schools a bit further away, but again they are over subscribed, and the chances of getting in are slim-to-none.

The department of education has said that every child will be offered a place, but I know anecdotally the school that we would be offered. It's no where near us and doesn't have a great reputation on any score. Additionally, it's not a 'feeder' for any good secondary school, so we would be snookered further down the line again.

I am worried that we are hanging our children's education out to dry for the sake of our own principles. Should we just baptise the kids, get the piece of paper and get on with it? I am very aware that if everyone in Ireland keeps doing this, nothing will change.

What legal argument do you think you will have, emo? Like it or not, faith schools are allowed to use faith as their number one criteria in their admissions code.

What's so good about faith anyway? Belief in stuff without evidence or worse still, contrary to the evidence. Why would you want to inflict that shortcoming on your kids, even if you suffer yourself?

A thimble of evidence is worth more than an ocean of faith, and two hands working will achieve more than a million hands clasped in prayer.

As the saying goes, give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him how to fish and he eats for life. Give him faith in god and he'll die of starvation praying for a fish.

It's wrong and it should be fought - as the Humanism Society is starting to do. Plenty of wrong things don't initially have legal precedent, but some people somewhere have to be willing to take the battle on.

I strongly suspect I won't personally need to, but I don't think the alternative is to "just do it" regarding baptising my children into an institution I find personally abhorrent without their sayso.

Hi Leaf I'm also Irish but living in London. I will be getting our baby baptised because I want to and believe in the sacrament.
If you don't believe in it then I wouldn't baptise them.
I'm in my mid to late twenties and when I was in school in Ireland there was a small minority of different denominations and atheists and although unusual they were still allowed to attend our catholic primary school.
Whereabouts in Ireland are you?

"What legal argument do you think you will have, emo? Like it or not, faith schools are allowed to use faith as their number one criteria in their admissions code."

I would imagine the fact that in large swathes of this country there is simply no alternative to faith schools. In my own area there are five primary schools and they are all denominational, the nearest multi-denominational school is miles away. There have already been serious questions raised in Europe about the discriminatory nature of the Irish educational system and the sluggishness of successive governments to do anything about it. But hey, everyone baptizes their children so we're all Catholic and really want a Catholic education, eh? No need for change!

Like treating others as you'd like to be treated yourself, forgiveness, turning the other cheek, personal responsibility

If the children are baptised for the reasons the op suggests, solely to get them into a certain school the message it sends to the children is "lie if you think it will get you what you want, be a hypocrite, don't challenge the status quo"

It's not about getting into a certain school. It's about being last preference in almost all schools and facing the possibility of not getting into any local school.

I think the OP lives close to me based on what she has posted. Of the 12 local primary schools, 10 discriminate on the basis of religion. Of the remaining two, one requires Irish speaking parents and my dd is over 300th on the list for the other. There is a massive shortage of places here and in surrounding areas.

leaf, we are in exactly the same position, semi leafy area of Dublin, two children, not baptised and not going to be baptised. Our eldest will be going to school in 2016 and I am so worried about where she will get a place. We have three massively over subscribed ET schools nearish to us and she is on the list since birth for all of those. One has recently changed its application status to random allocation which disadvantages us hugely as she was high up on that list. Everyone I know has baptised their children simply for school places despite being non practising, non believing "Catholics". It actually gives me the rage. I know families who have christened children both COI and RC to cover their basis. My husband and I can't bring ourselves to do that. There will have to be change at a structural political level. Ruairi Quinn started the ball rolling but it has stalled again.

So why don't all the parents take to the streets and protest. Show in numbers that they are fake Catholics forced into the situation. Get out and March with some banners. Embarrass the government and the church.

Bamba, that's an excellent question. Why did the water charges protests get thousands of people out and furious, but not the continuing stranglehold of Catholicism on education? I can only conclude that for the non-practising majority, baptism and a tokenistic going with the flow isn't enough of a problem to get them out on the streets.

"So why don't all the parents take to the streets and protest. Show in numbers that they are fake Catholics forced into the situation. Get out and March with some banners. Embarrass the government and the church."

1. Because people don't.
2. Because in the natural order of things, people don't become aware of the situation until they are in it - and, regrettably, but understandably, they don't want to rock the boat for their own children.
3. Because if people didn't take to the streets to show their outrage at the far worse iniquities of the Catholic Church in Ireland, it seems unlikely that they will for this.

I think because in my area it serves a purpose in prioritising local (Irish) children over newcomers and people are willing to pay a small price for that if it gives their children priority.

Because the people affected are all parents of small children and are too bloody knackered

So then maybe the numbers of parents that are so against it is quite small then. I'm an atheist from a catholic background and I'd probably just be pragmatic about it. Baptise them and then forget about the church and ignore it unless it suits me. I still like churches and the hymns and don't mind the odd service. I already baptised my kids for similar reasons and possibly cultural as well.

I would possibly stil get out and March though if an march was going ahead near me as I don't agree with the situation.

I'm in a very similar position.

Dublin. Six schools within walking distance, five are Catholic, one an Educate Together.

We cannot baptise as we are religious but not Catholic.

All schools are massively oversubscribed. My youngest should get a place at the ET, my eldest doesn't have a hope. She's not likely to get into any of the Catholic schools either. So we're facing a long commute on bus or train to who knows where, unless some miracle happens between now and 2016.

Whenever I think about it, it sends me into a panic. I've had sleepless nights over it. I don't know what the answer is.

Erm, might be a silly question, but is there anything to stop parents baptising a child as both Catholic and CoI, and then applying to respective schools with the relevant baptismal cert in hand?

I know there aren't many CoI schools compared to Catholic, but there are some. So if atheist parents are going to baptise just for school entry, can they do it twice?

TTWK you do not get to decide whether someone else's child is Catholic or not. My daughters have all made the decision to become RC despite no one in the immediate family being Catholic. Their faith has helped them immensely since the death of their brother although they believed long before that. You don't get to take that away from them. I also find the inference they have been brainwashed extremely offensive and patronising to them. My eleven year old in particular strongly knows her own mind, is very inquisitive and loves science. I do however sympathise with the op and other Irish residents with this issue. I agree that the Church should be working together with the multi denominational schools in order to help set up more of these schools in order to stop people baptising for the wrong reasons.

I'm Irish too, but not in Dublin. There are only catholic schools in our area. We're not practising at all but we did get married in a church and have had the first 2 kids baptised. Youngest not done yet - we're broke and I've had health issues and haven't gotten around it. I have no belief in it at all - just go with the flow. My mil wouldn't sleep at night if we didn't baptise the kids - I figure it does no harm and is a nice day out. My kids have never been in a church outside of baptisms and I don't feel a bit guilty about it. I just don't care about the church - we paid well for any services we've gotten from them so I don't feel guilty about that side of it either.

When they start school I'll let them have communion and confirmation if they want - I imagine they will as it is seen as a great opportunity by kids to make money and have a party. But I won't take them into church unless I absolutely have to.

It sounds awful but I suspect there are a lot of mums like me.

My advice would be to get her baptised - it's a meaningless ceremony and it will help her get into a better school.

"My advice would be to get her baptised - it's a meaningless ceremony and it will help her get into a better school."

Apart from the whole "perpetuating our unbelievably discriminatory system and continuing to royally fuck over people like me" aspect, isn't this actually incredibly insulting to genuine believers? I mean, would you participate in the important holy rituals of any other faith you didn't believe in just to "get stuff" (schools, family approval, a party, presents) too?

And yeah, sorry, it does sound awful. It is awful.

Yep, it is awful. That said, credit to Amber for her honesty at least!

I think Amber has actually just answered Bamba's question about why parents didn't get angry and work to change the system. What she has said is, I think, the attitude of huge numbers of non-practising Catholic parents in Ireland, which is why the system continues without mass opposition. Pun not intended...

"Apart from the whole "perpetuating our unbelievably discriminatory system and continuing to royally fuck over people like me" aspect, isn't this actually incredibly insulting to genuine believers? I mean, would you participate in the important holy rituals of any other faith you didn't believe in just to "get stuff" (schools, family approval, a party, presents) too?"

I don't see it insulting to genuine believers. I don't see that it makes any difference to them. I didn't ask to be baptised into the Catholic church. I didn't ask to go to a catholic school. I didn't ask to make all the sacriments. If these faiths insist on dictating societies and government rules, giving the populace little or no choice then sod them. If the church is happy to keep this going and make life difficult for people just trying to live their life with what is available to them - then stuff them when people use them for their own goals and needs and give it not too much thought.

So stuff the church and the genuine believers - I don't see any of them out in support of the non believers.

I agree. For all I disagree with Amber's stance on this issue, insulting genuine believers is bottom of my list of issues. Irish people have been put in an incredibly difficult position by the church and by Irish society for tugging its forelock to the church since time immemorial.

If the church really had an issue with people going through the motions for reasons of expediency then surely they would be more proactive in turning some primary schools into multi-denoms? As someone said way upthread the church is more interested in bumping its numbers than weeding out the non-believers.

TTWK you do not get to decide whether someone else's child is Catholic or not. My daughters have all made the decision to become RC

Buffyp, Of course I don't. I don't even get to decide my own kids religion, or lack of it. That's a matter for them. That's my whole point. And as your children were allowed to make their own decision, it seems like you agree with me! So I don't know what you're getting your knickers in a twist over!!!