to not baptise my children?

[leafbarktree]

I live in Rep of Ireland, and have two small pre-schoolers, neither are baptised. DH and I were both raised Catholic and are non the worse for wear as a result, but both of us are now at best agnostic, and would disagree with the church on several aspects of their teaching.

In Ireland, the vast majority of schools have the Catholic church as 'patron', and are free to prioritise Catholic children over those of other faith or none. (schools with other patrons have the same right). All of our local schools are over-subscribed and the kids will not currently get in to any of them, unless we baptise them. There are a few non-denominational schools a bit further away, but again they are over subscribed, and the chances of getting in are slim-to-none.

The department of education has said that every child will be offered a place, but I know anecdotally the school that we would be offered. It's no where near us and doesn't have a great reputation on any score. Additionally, it's not a 'feeder' for any good secondary school, so we would be snookered further down the line again.

I am worried that we are hanging our children's education out to dry for the sake of our own principles. Should we just baptise the kids, get the piece of paper and get on with it? I am very aware that if everyone in Ireland keeps doing this, nothing will change.

aermingers - you can teach your child all those good vales without being a catholic.

I have no religion but I know right from wrong and teach my DC's the same.

My DD isn't baptised (I don't believe in...anything) as I feel it's for her to decide what she wants to believe in herself - this is the stance my parents took and I've always been grateful for it.

However, if it was a choice between not being baptised and a shitty education and being baptised and getting a great education, I'd have tipped every trace of 'holy' water I could get my hands on over her head in a damn heartbeat. I don't care what that makes me - my daughter's education is more important.

I'd do it OP. Until the ridiculous system is changed, you're not being left with many options.

Please don't do it. We're not going to, in the same position, and the only way there will be change is if people like us stop buying into this charade. Though I'll be honest and say in our position, we also avoided the church marriage part so it makes not baptising easier.

There are massive social changes afoot, and the sooner the better. The department has an obligation to you: sending you miles away is not on. When I grew up, there were people of different faiths and none in my catholic school: it was less of an issue then that it is now with growing numbers of people clearly not believing. But the whole country is going to have to figure it out soon, and the growing numbers of people baptising and doing first communions for a quiet life - the majority of christenings we're invited to - is only going to make it slower and more awkward.

We are in Dublin, Brought up Catholic but now atheist. We have 2 DSs and didn't get them baptised. Eldest going to school in Sept. I was panicking and had his name down for Educate Together since he was born. We have ended up getting a place in both Educate Together and in the local catholic school. DP in particular feels strongly about them have religion forced down their throats at school as he was in a Christian brothers school himself. He believes religion should be up to the family and their church and should not be taught at school. I really agree that until people stop getting married in church's and getting kids baptised when they don't believe nothing will change.

Also: it obviously depends hugely where in Dublin you are, and I don't want to dismiss the concern that its a rubbish school out of hand as it may well be, but I went to primary school ages away from home as it was closer to my dad's office. Two of my best friends from primary lived ages away for similar reasons. I wouldn't worry about not being near their friends, you'd be surprised how many people make use of the fact we're much more flexible with catchment areas than the UK: obviously the rubbish school is an issue. But since it sounds like you've a few years, I'd be inclined to at least try and get your DC in without - a friend's niece was recently christened at 4, you can imagine why. Didn't make any difference she wasn't done as a baby. You could use the time between now and then to ask for school admissions policies, right to local TDs, and generally make a pain of yourself and you might find you get what you want anyway. That's certainly my plan, however effective or otherwise it might be.

I would baptise them if it gives you more options.

All the good schools in my area are CofE which means I have to go to church every Sunday. Last place in the world I want to be but my daughters deserve a good education, it's a competitive world and we have to do what we have to do to give our children a chance.

I won't baptise my son for the same reasons. Just seems hugely hypocritical tbh.

I fully understand why people do it. But I just can't bring myself to do the same.

I'm against baptizing children in general. I believe that a person should be baptized only when they understand what it means and have decided to follow Jesus because it's in their heart. It is sad to me that people are baptizing and using baptism as a means of getting into schools (by this I mean I think it's wrong that education has got to the point where people have to baptize without faith to get good schooling - it takes away from the true meaning of baptism which is a public acknowledgement of your faith and acceptance of Jesus as your Lord and Saviour).

In your case I'd do it because education is also so important, but I'd feel horrible about doing so b/c my belief is that DC should be able to make the choice to be baptized or not when they feel ready to do that public profession of faith (or not). I'm a very committed Christian but whether or not my DC would be is their choice.

I'd probably do it in your case as I wouldn't want my children to possibly suffer for the principle. I have done it anyway, partly for this reason - to get them into the closest "best" school. The get together was nice anyway and they didn't go to that school in the end either.

Thanks all for your feedback. I must admit I'm surprised by the slant of opinion, with most people taking the pragmatic 'just do it' view, I had kind of assumed it would go the other way.

Our oldest is 3 now so as another poster has said, we have another year or so to figure things out and hope that the slow change picks up pace a bit. I will write to my TD, not that it'll achieve anything but it might make me feel better. I know of a few people who baptised at 4 years old to get the childers into school. I don't think the church care about motivation, they appear to be more interested in bolstering numbers than gathering true believers. If they really cared then they would be supporting the educate together movement to remove the pressure to baptise for the wrong reasons.

If you do go ahead and then agree to FHC and confirmation then remember most schools/churchs insist that the DC attend a certain mass each month. I am in a leafy suburb of North Cork and those are the rules One parent this year was called in to school in February and told that DC would not recieve FHC unless they could prove they attended mass once a month.

Well yes, canyou, when you're in you've got to continue playing the game...
Same here in London

I suppose this is my biggest concern... How easy will it be to just baptise, get the certificate and then opt out again. I don't have any issue with them attending RE, the parables and stories covered in primary school are all perfectly pleasant and give a good moral framework. But I don't know how easy it would be to opt out of FHC and confirmation once we are 'in the system', both from pressure from school and pressure from the kids themselves who may well want to conform with their peers (and flounce around in a white dress for a day). It seems like the fakery would go on and on for years.

I worry that the whole thing will be confusing for the kids, they will be hearing one 'truth' at school and a contradictory message at home.

Another Pp mentioned that secondary schools are looking for FHC certs now, wonder is that in UK or Ire?

That's why I absolutely won't do it. This is a game I just don't have the stomach for and would feel bad lying to the dds. I do understand why people do it but it won't be happening here. If the kids get into a Catholic school we will take them out of school for a long weekend around the FHC and go on a little holiday.

Friends of mine who teach say there are several children in each year opting out of FHC (still learning the stories etc but not doing the event). I don't think there's usually a pressure from the school to force the non-catholics into doing FHC. It's fairly common.

I worry that the whole thing will be confusing for the kids, they will be hearing one 'truth' at school and a contradictory message at home

My dd2 was 7 - I asked her what her school taught about how the world was created......she tutted, rolled her eyes and said 'God'

In your position I would baptize them. They can always make their own decisions about religion when they are old enough - they won't thank you if they end up at a crap school or somewhere too far away.

I'm temporarily living in Dublin and facing the same issue. Everyone I speak to locally says to just baptise them anyway (in our case would be COI). Aside from the hypocrasy, I don't think I have the brass neck to ask for my child to be baptised when I don't even have a cultural link to the church involved. DH and I are christened COE so that puts her into the 6th (out of 7) criteria group for most of the local schools here.

I expect I live in the part of "leafy" Dublin mentioned earlier and I can assure you that aside from the heavily oversubscribed (and waiting list from birth) multi-denom school all local schools discriminate on the basis of religion.

We are atheist (me) and Buddhist (DH). Moved to Ireland from UK.

My DS isn't baptised and goes to the local village Catholic National school in rural Cork. We live next door to it so would have been silly going elsewhere.
I dislike the religious aspects of his education but hoping I can provide balance at home.

Interesting comments about not getting into secondary school if not completed FHC. I will have to investigate that further as I wasn't aware of it being an issue around here.

I have no problem with DD attending a religious school - the problem is that she won't get into any school here.

I'd imagine many other parents are in the same boat and feel the same OP. Can't see how the school can force you to go through all the Catholic school once you are there. Must be quite a few lax Catholics and non religious folk there.

The more I read, secular seems to be the way to go. People shouldn't be held hostage by bloody religion.

Bamba, unfortunately, it has zero to do with the religious beliefs of the parents. There's still a majority culture of lip service cultural Catholicism in Ireland where even the completely irreligious vast majority baptise their babies and have them make their first communion and confirmation, and have church weddings. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy - everyone does it because everyone does it. There's still a widespread view that it's 'cruel' not to let your child make their communion and confirmation (in both cases, major juvenile money-making and dressing-up opportunities) because it makes them 'stand out as weird at school'.

My uncle and aunt did not speak to their thirty-five-year-old only child for SIX MONTHS when he told them he and his fiancée were not having a Church wedding, despite the fact that they knew perfectly well he hadn't been inside a church in 20 years, and his fiancée wasn't Catholic. They weren't even devout themselves, but 'everyone gets married in church' and civil ceremonies 'arent nice'.

I read a statistic recently that said 96% of Irish children are baptised. That says a lot.

Just checked, it's 93%.

I'm afraid that's true. My cousins all go through the entire malarkey despite not one of them being a practicing Catholic. This time of year all the little girls in white dresses are all over my Facebook - not a single one of these kids sees the inside of a church apart from these ceremonies. The confirmation is even worse, 12 year olds that are old enough to know it's a sham but hey...we all do it because 'that's what we do'. (Not that I expect a 12 yearold to back out on their own) It needs to stop, there has to be a clear reduction in church power over education.

I had a civil wedding, and my child is not baptised. I however no longer live in Ireland and to be honest this school business is one of the reasons why I am unlikely to go back (a minor one but still a reason). My civil ceremony was the first in the family and it was fun hearing afterwards how 'unexpectedly nice' it was. That bit at last has improved now you can marry in hotels.