to not baptise my children?

[leafbarktree]

I live in Rep of Ireland, and have two small pre-schoolers, neither are baptised. DH and I were both raised Catholic and are non the worse for wear as a result, but both of us are now at best agnostic, and would disagree with the church on several aspects of their teaching.

In Ireland, the vast majority of schools have the Catholic church as 'patron', and are free to prioritise Catholic children over those of other faith or none. (schools with other patrons have the same right). All of our local schools are over-subscribed and the kids will not currently get in to any of them, unless we baptise them. There are a few non-denominational schools a bit further away, but again they are over subscribed, and the chances of getting in are slim-to-none.

The department of education has said that every child will be offered a place, but I know anecdotally the school that we would be offered. It's no where near us and doesn't have a great reputation on any score. Additionally, it's not a 'feeder' for any good secondary school, so we would be snookered further down the line again.

I am worried that we are hanging our children's education out to dry for the sake of our own principles. Should we just baptise the kids, get the piece of paper and get on with it? I am very aware that if everyone in Ireland keeps doing this, nothing will change.

I agree lipsync

Not being baptised means that my daughter comes last in the admissions criteria of all local schools bar the one multi-denom school. That school has a waiting list system and is so oversubscribed that even if you put the child's name down at birth they are unlikely to get a place. There is no distance criteria for that school, it is purely based on place on the waiting list with sibling priority. It is also single form entry. ALL other local schools (including private) are either COI or Catholic and prioritise accordingly.
We are planning to leave Ireland before DD starts school but I can understand why people relax their principles on this. It's not about getting into a particular school, it's about being lowest priority for all schools and therefore automatically being assigned to the worst school in the area (or even some distance away).

Catholicism isn't really into the idea of creationsism TakeMeUp. It believes in the Big Bang (although obviously they say God masterminded that).

TTWK - your point about religion is dubious. A lot of religions such as Jews, Sikh, consider themselves to be ethnic groups and this is accepted by the UK courts. Even if a person didn't believe in the Jewish religion they could well consider themselves a non-practising Jew, just a non-believer might consider themselves a lapsed Catholic.

It really annoys me, by the way, when people complain about organised religion. What is a disorganised religion?

I should add that dd would probably end up being assigned to a catholic school anyway because they aren't as oversubscribed. But it would be further away and with a worse reputation than the one she would go to if she were baptised.

leafbarktree, ET schools (or any school in Ireland) cannot take children on their lists until they are born as schools must have a name and DOB so whoever told you that children were listed before birth is either lying or showing that the school is not acting legally. At 3 months yo0ur child should be in with a good shot at a place no matter how over subscribed the ET.
I suggest you revisit the local ET school and check their admissions policy. What is your childs number on the list, our local ET (Dublin) usually get to about number 120 for 60 places as a lot of people list in more than one school. Also most (not all) ET schools assign children an application number whereby if the child does not receive a place this year you defer to the top of the list for the following year. Depending on when your child was born for most children March onward staring school at 5+ rather than 4+ is a bonus as the age profiles of the class is much higher now.

Honestly in my educational history, none of this has been my experience. It sounds like 50's Ireland and not the one I live in .

A d I'm not denying the hold the church can have but schools are so afraid of being non inclusive around here that they go to great pains to make sure that no one is left out.

In fact just looking at the criteria here foe my local schools it's a. Siblings of pupils attending the schools.b. distance. C. Children of staff d. Everyone else

Oh and check out any local Gaelscoileanna, priority in those schools is given to Irish Speaking families (worth making the effort) and children in the Nainora and then by enrolment number.

samG76. The legal definition of race and the genetic/biological definition are indeed 2 separate things. In law Jews are a race. But in reality they are not. You get black Jews in Ethiopia and blonde blue eyed Jews in Sweden. They are clearly not the same race because they happen to believe in the same invisible magic man in the sky.

Creationism isn't a Catholic article of belief. And I don't think anyone is actually thinking in terms of froth-flecked nuns preaching hellfire at small children - apart from anything else, most of the teaching nuns have died off, not before time.

For me personally, ithe problem would be the nod and a wink 'ah lads, let's just pay lip service and not rock the boat' attitude and the sheer confirmist tokenism of the whole charade, the disconnect between what the vast majority of the Irish population actually believes and what it actually does. Sometimes it seems to me that the revelations of the various appalling church cover-ups of repeated and endemic child abuse, and the death-dealing fuzziness about abortion, have let Irish people feel let off the hook in terms of mass-going and confession etc, but it hasn't followed through into a concerted effort to alter the education system, or root out the inter penetration between the judiciary and the Catholic hierarchy.

I won't sign my child up for that.

leafbark sorry - my post probably sounded patronising and I didn't mean it to - of course you don't want to do it. And while I don't live in Ireland anymore, I do live in an area where there is a massive shortage of primary school places, where we have chosen to live in an area (we've been here since way before we had DC and have chosen to remain) that had a great school. I say had as I don't like the way it's going. At all. Although hilariously (ironic emoticon) even though we can hear the children in the playground at lunchtime, because it's so oversubscribed, we may not get DD in and the alternatives make me consider either home education or beans on toast for the next 20 years and going private. So I feel your pain.

I think the suggestion of a multi-denominational gaelscoil is a good one - and one I'd also thought of overnight. Is that an option?

In the olden days, when my DM ran the Pre enrolment list for ET schools, you couldn't put a child's name down until it had been born - it's a real shame if that's changed :(

Of course the real shame is the lack of choice. But I have to agree with Hakluyt if you don't take a stand, things don't change. But who wants to be the first? :(

Honestly in my educational history, none of this has been my experience. It sounds like 50's Ireland and not the one I live in .

I went to convent schools and I had a very nice time. But that's not the point.

The point is that for many Irish people Catholicism is now utterly redundant and they don't feel that people should dance to the Catholic church's tune just because that's what's always been done.

Or what Lipsync more eloquently said.

My point is in my experience you don't have to dance to anyone's tune. Don't get baptised and opt the kids out of what you want. I know at least 15 kids in our school right now doing that.

I think the problem is exacerbated in the area where I live because there is a shortage of places. So the schools have to ration places and choose to do that by religion. I'm not suggesting that all
Ireland is like this. But it sounds like the OP lives close to me and round here unbaptised children do not get into the local schools unless they are the lucky 30 who get into the ET each year.

TakeMe - the problem is that not baptising a child does not opt them out of Catholicism in many national schools.

In some - a few - national schools in Ireland, there are lots of kids from different cultural and religious backgrounds where a non-baptised child wouldn't stand out even if the school is still technically Catholic. It's very much up to the individual school and principal, but it is technically possible for a school to avoid immersive Catholic instruction. There is a curriculum requirement for 30 mins religious education per day, and that time can be spent covering world religions, humanism, ethical issues, etc., much like ET schools do.

But that light touch virtually never happens in national schools where the vast majority of kids are Catholic, as is the case in oversubscribed schools (particularly in Dublin) where they can selectively discriminate on the basis of religion. In such schools, immersive Catholic instruction is common, where Catholicism is so interwoven into school life that it goes far beyond the 30 mins per day of religious education. I'm talking about prayers several times a day, crucifix on the wall, religion books that effectively teach "some people believe X and Y, but now here's how things really are", children's masses held in the school during school hours, assemblies led by the local priest, music/choir time that solely features hymns, school concerts where every class is either singing a religious song or acting out a story from the bible, teaching myths and legends like St. Brigid's cloak as historical fact, school tours that involved stopping the bus to say the Angelus, etc. ... And yes, I've seen this type of immersion very recently in primary schools both inside and outside Dublin (though it wasn't one school doing all these things, thankfully).

So the occasional child that is not baptised and not Catholic can try to opt out of the 30 mins religion class per day, but it won't mean they're not being immersed in a Catholic education.

TTWK - I'm not a geneticist, but I understand that most Ashkenazi Jews are descended from about 350 people, and there are other genetic markers. There are also diseases especially prevalent in the Jewish community and others they almost never get. Difficult to see how these can be a matter of belief.

Some members of some faith groups share a genetic heritage.

This does not mean race and religion are the same thing. And does not apply to Roman Carholics.

from this conversation you would think that Presbyterians, C of I etc simply do not exist in the rep of Ireland. Just saying

Not sure where that has come from Duncan.

My closest national school is COI. They also discriminate on the basis of baptism and I have been told that they never get far enough down the criteria to take an unbaptised child (COI or otherwise) especially one whose parents are also not baptised COI.

it was an observation on this conversation mitzy, that is all.
I was serious! Do Protestants just go to private schools or what?

Of the Protestants I know, all of them went to a private school.

samG76, Tay Sachs disease is more prevalent in the Ashkenazi Jewish community. It's an awful condition and is fatal. But if a couple who were born to lapsed Jewish parents decided to convert to Buddhism, their child would be at the same risk. Religion, losing religion, changing religion, does not affect your DNA.

Sammy Davies Junior's kids and Gabby Roslin's kids are all Jewish. They are clearly not the same race.

Hakluyt has it spot on. A geneticist can look at DNA and say "this person is Innuit, a Peruvian Indian" or whatever. They can guess at religion based on the genetics, but can't know for sure.

well who can blame them

90% of Irish primary schools are run by the Catholic church. Hardly surprising that talk about religion and school in Ireland revolves around Catholicism.